Islam has one fundamental principle to guide it's followers and that is Be Honest.
However Muslims across the world probably the most
dishonest group of people.
Oh ! this is not an opinion or an attempted diatribe to generate debate- it is a fact.
Should we take the example of Pakistan to start with.
Since Pakistan is a rural society-( mostly) –let us examine a little bit of the village life.
I am from the Frontier-( now called Pukhtunkhawah) so I shall restrict my comments to my own region.
A person commits a murder. The killer is not known yet. When they go to the police station, most will give false testimony against the people they do not like even though they know that the person they are accusing is not the killer.
A person takes over someone else’s land and occupies it and refuses to leave. The case goes to court and a decision is given against the culprit. The culprit continues to occupy the land and drags the case in the court system just to cause pain and stress(on purpose) to the legitimate owner.
A man divorces his wife but refuses to pay her financial support as prescribed by Islamic law.
A man dies. His sons refuse to give their fair share-( of land or money)- to their sisters even though prescribed by Islamic Law.
Malicious, on purpose false testimony is the norm.
Cheating in selling goods, selling foodstuffs at exorbitant prices during the month of Ramadan.
Selling impure and known defective medications to sick people.
Doctors operating even though the patient does not need an operation.
Shopkeepers lying all the time about prices of goods they sell and saying that is good business.
Everyone taking bribes by demanding bribes from anyone who needs anything, any document- even though they are getting paid a salary for their job.
The mechanic lies about what needs to be done with someone’s machine
The private schools are fleecing the WANA BEE parents without providing an education in return
Suffice it to say that Muslims everywhere are liars, thieves and cheats.
And there are a lot of people here who think they can compete with the decadent West in technology and scientific development. I wonder what they are SMOKING!
Oh just think of the Saudis who have Sharia system of justice. Oh! They are so rotten that nothing needs be said about them. Same goes for the Gulf Sheikhs and the Nigerians( Champions in cheating and corruption).
So all this hoopla about the Muslim Ummah- if only they were left alone by the oursiders- everything would be just great!
Sorry no. Our history and even if we include the history of the Muslim Arabs and of Muslim Turks as our own-( which we do) exposes that rotten fact.
When the 2005 earthquakes happened- the world gave a lot of money and material. What did we do ? Well some of us got very rich by selling those items.
Oh not only the govt officlas but those that masqueraded as victims of the earthquake even though they were not.
The ultimate example is that of Mullah Fazlu of the Diesel fame. And as yet everyone thinks he is a good politician and people still vote for this charlatan.
There are not enough papers left for me write a list.
Let me just say that salvation is not possible.
I am ready and willing to face the artillery that I am sure will be fired in my direction.
Bravo for coming up with such a factual charge sheet.
And yet we chant the mantra “we are the best”
My last experience; In a paper a female examiner expelled a female student from hall due to her bad attitude and non-sense in front of my eyes. Next day the girl claimed on Geo TV that she is innocent and examiner slapped her and expelled her out.
Should be no surprise to the man who quoted:
"They (Muslims) pay the required BRIBES of prayer 5 times a day, Fast in Ramadan, sacrifice the animals on I'd, and perform Haj and after that they( Muslims) are free to do anything they wish. " end of quote.
Morality and Ethics be damned."
Even if everything you say is true, shimatoree, forgive me, but I don't quite see the point you are making. Is it that the West is not decadent, is it that the Ummah is just a daydream and is not even worth thinking about? Is it... ach, but what need to go on and on. Just give us your conclusion: Should Muslims be urged to commit collective suicide? Actually, no need for that, it's more or less been done for them already by the West forces and their DU legacy and the phosphorus bomb, etc. So what next?
And could we not find anything to say in favour of Muslims at all? At least their usual stoicism should find some favour in your eyes as it does in mine.
what ever you have written about we muslims (ummah) is 100% right. i have same feeling and some times in past i write here that we are nation of cheaters, liars, corrupts.
question is why we can not come out of it?
answers are 2.
- we are told by our mullas to hide our (muslims) mistakes unfairness and crimes and only express good deeds (ibaadat) done by us.
2)as nota bhai said
"They (Muslims) pay the required BRIBES of prayer 5 times a day, Fast in Ramadan, sacrifice the animals on I'd, and perform Haj and after that they( Muslims) are free to do anything they wish".
We are certainly the nation of liars and cheaters. No doubt. But that does not mean anything. There is still hope.
Allah says in the Quran: Never ever despair in the Mercy of Allah SBT.
The Arabs were the worst on the planet and were lowest of the low and Islam tranformed them into the best of nations. It was a miracle that did it and insha'Allah it will be a miracle again. Prophet SAS said in his farewell address that he is living behind the Book-Quran and his example-Sunnah. If we adhere to that 100% and implement Shariah then it will be a miracle. Quran and Sunnah have been left with us until the end of the world to implement. We have turned our backs on it and unfortunately have embraced secular dajjali system in all our institutions-economic, social and political. Pleae note a new thread was recently opened here talking about a revolution. And that revolution should NOT be based on tribal, national or ethnic or economical domain like we had the communists or the French or the Iranian but a purely Islamic revolution devoid of geographical boundaries. When EU Kuffars are dismantling the man made boundaries and progressing towards common currency and common parliement, why are we sticking with colonial inspired boundaries? Why don't we follow Quran and Sunnah?
George Bernard Shaw had a debate with Mualana Abdul Aleem Siddiqui RA for three consecutive days. After the end of debate, Bernard said," I had a lot of mis-comprehensions about Islam before the debate, but now I realize that Islam is the best religion, but the Muslims are the worst nation because of being impractical". As a matter of fact, we had a downfall when we stopped maintaining our character in accordance with the teachings of our religion.
Believe it or not you indirectly had something to do with me finally writing this. As you know I have been writing a few comments here - not very often but I have always read your comments. Unlike others your's are not your opinions but attempts at bringing forth facts and truths
It is Ramadan and I do fast. In this month I try to speak the truth and after reading a a few comments, I decided to take the plunge . A friend of mine is visiting me and at Sehree we got to talking and the converstaion led to me writing about this.
As I said, there is not enough paper in this world to put forth a list- but let me add a few more.
1. The Wadera system of land grab.
2. I have a relative who was a cabinet secretary in Islamabad in the late eighties and nineties and saw at first hand the big stealing and robbery of the nation being done by those very people who the nation trusted by electing them.( BB and Nawaz).
3.I also know Farooq Adam who was the prosecutor general at NAB when Musharraf created the organization and thus have close knowledge of Musharraf's corruption along with a lot of others during that time.
4. The dirt and the filth that we see in the streets -why is it there ? Oh it is there because we are a dirty and filthy people. Just go to Islamabad where POSH houses throw garbage just outside their homes.
5. Do we teach our kids decency and honesty( at home) ?
Mirza Sahib _
As I said there is no salvation. Just imagine we lie to God 5 times a day. We say we are Muslims but we are anything but that.
The suicide Bomber says he is sacrificing for Jihad but he is no different than the SHIA beating their chests in a procession a few times a year or the Mullah who calls the SHIA Kafir and spews venom against them.
Both are brain washed by Mullahs who claim to be authorities of religion.
We say we have built the JF-17. Have WE ?
We are lying about that too. The frame is built by the Chinese and the engine by the Russians, avionic system by the Italians or French and the radar by someone else.
How could we built those machines- it would require honesty and integrity which is very short supply.
Oh! just do not go far- here at PKP- just read some of the comments. You will know.
Everyone talks about revolution now a days. What revolution and by whom ?
Revolution requires some degree of honesty and courage both of which are in short supply.
If you still have doubts- here is few more.
We treat 50 % of our population ( women) with pre-meditated contempt and derrisson. More than that we justify it on fabricated Islamic grounds. We forget that they are the FORMATIVE members of our families and society because they are the mothers of our children
Musharraf did what he did in 2001 and a lot of people supported him and they still do even now after 10 years. Does that tell you something.
The Prophet Mohammad declared DISHONESTY and LIES as mother of all evil.
As yet we are champions in lying to tohers and to ourselves. Yes it is a bitter pill to swallow but it is true
The interview, if it indeed did happen, couldn't possibly have lasted three days as it is too brief (full 'transcript' here). And as to what Shaw said 'after the debate' is a fabrication I believe. I certainly think the author of this post gives it a fair treatment...
There are Huqooq Ul Allah (Allah's rights) and Huquooq Ul Ibad (public rights). Huqooq Ul Ibad are more important than Huqooq Ul Allah, as Allah is Samad. The saints advised their disciples to not be negligent about Huqooq Ul Ibad by even 1%. Most of us, particularly, our Mullahs are deviating from the teachings of Islam in this respect.
hussain haqqani bhai
"The saints advised their disciples to not be negligent about Huqooq Ul Ibad by even 1%. Most of us, particularly, our Mullahs are deviating from the teachings of Islam in this respect"
this is where our downfall starts.
@ Abdul Rahman: The Arabs were the worst on the planet and were lowest of the low and Islam tranformed them into the best of nations.
Maybe this was true 1400 years ago, but in this age they are nowhere among the best of nations.
Your quote- "We are certainly the nation of liars and cheaters. No doubt. But that does not mean anything. "
I disagree vehemently.
After all The Prophet himself did say that lying and dishonesty are the mother of all evils.
What more is needed to make the point.
As far as there still being hope- well once again I do not think there is any hope at all.
The lying and cheating has reached such a level that I feel that going back is not possible at all.
The very fact that this thread has failed to create debate is an indication to me that no one wants to face upto the problems as they really are.
The Shoe Fits.
great thread .
self analysis and self check is the thing ; which has been needed badly for the betterment of things .
as they say :
Become the Change , you want to see in the world .
we all talk about change and revolution .
but very few of us , think about self change and self revolution .
we need a revolution in our behavior towards many things .
otherwise ,we will go more down and down .
shimatoree, you hit us over the head with the thickest stick you could find and then, while we lie there comatose, you up and complain no debate is possible with the likes of us. Somewhat unfair, don't you think?
I'd much rather AR's "We are certainly the nation of liars and cheaters. No doubt. But that does not mean anything." A hint of the grandiose there.
Shimatoree, reflect: you are supposed to be a fount of wisdom, not a fount of venom. Help us to get back onto our feet. Don't hit us over the head while we are prostrate, helpless and hopeless already.
Rather than the list of “Do’s and Don’ts”, if we only start to think and act with rationality, a lot of things would change. Liberal thinking will answer most of our questions.
mirza ghalib bhai
"We are certainly the nation of liars and cheaters. No doubt. But that does not mean anything-- by abdul rehman bhai"
if it sound you as our grandiose than hamara khuda hee hafiz hy. it also mean that we are happy to be liars and cheaters and continue to enjoy our life like that in future. it is not venom bhai jee. it is truth. only we our self can stand on our feet if we wish so and change us. we need hardest hitting on our head to bring us out from world of illusions.
no offence intended mirza ghalib bhai
First a correction-
I did not say that no debate is POSSIBLE!
What I did say is that when a difficult topic is put forth here-( by design by Me here) I have noticed that either the MODERATORS place it in the SIBERIA of Faith and Religion-( which they have created for the purpose) or the topic just is allowed to die due to neglect by commentators !
Now to MEAT of the arguement-
If you are going to try to treat a disease- first you have to accept that you DO have disease. Then examine it, the causes etc and how it came about.
Only then you can think of treatments and like CANCER sometimes disease cannot be treated or like severe infections it is too late for ANTIBIOTICS to be of benefit.
Now here in this case I would suggest the following-
Each one of us must teach our children that dishonesty is UNACCEPTABLE.
Then in our own conduct we should be totally uncompromising and refuse any form of dishonesty.
That will mean that we will displease many-( as I and nota and others have discovered here at PKP)- and might be of damage to us in our financial or other interests.
If we do that then at least we are starting a 1000 mile journey with one step.
In addition, we should call a spade a spade. Lots of people have adopted the WESTERN way of being polite and non-confrontational and rather telling it like it is- they use modified deformed language to hide what the truth is.
A revolution cannot correct anything if carried out by dishonest and corrupt people.
We do not have any honest leaders on the horizon. They all want to do MUFAHEMAT and siasat of compromise and collusion.
Once again I shall go to what the Prophet said- Dishonesty is the mother of all evils.
And last but not the least- the religious establishment have to become the ETHICAL guards of the nation and speak like Jeremayah of the Old Testament of the Bible and take the risk of being burnt alive by the SINNERS like Giordano Bruno or being skinned alive like Mansoor Hussain Hallaj and Mazdak.
Lastly- I like the language you have used to describe me. And I like it.
If I have hit everyone over the head with a really big stick - Yes I have tried to do that on purpose-( in an intellectual sense) and I am very happy to do it. Why ?
Because I love this nation of ours beyond anyone's imagination and this is the least I could do to help critical thinking .
And you are not comatose. You have a lot of life left in you-( our nation) .
Remember who my hero is ? Hazrat Umar. I am sure he would approve.
And I might say that you have defined the problem and the solution very well indeed.