Secular Pakistan - The Vision of M.A. Jinnah, Who Hijacked it?



  • You are free to go to your temples; you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any caste or creed — that has nothing to do with the business of the state.” - Jinnah.



  • Possible

    You are free to go to your temples; you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any caste or creed — that has nothing to do with the business of the state.” - Jinnah.

    The statement has nothing to do with secularism, Don't put ur own personal thoughts on the view of Quaid, The statement only shows the freedom given to minorities and Islam give this freedom.

    Secularism is Curse, Secularism destroy Moral values.

    Moral values, such as honesty, trustworthiness, justice and chastity, are originally innate values which Allah planted in the hearts of mankind; then He sent His messengers with a system of life in accord with this innate disposition to affirm it.

    "So set your face toward the religion, as one by nature upright; the instinctive (religion) which Allah has created in mankind. There is no altering (the laws) of Allah's creation. That is the right religion but most people do not know." [Surat Al-Rum:30].

    A believer adheres to these moral values because his nature, fortified by faith, induces him to do so, and because the religion he believes in commands him with them and promises him a reward for them in the Hereafter.

    Secularism, on the other hand, even in its less virulent form that satisfies itself with removing religion from political life, rejecting it and the innate values as a basis for legislation, undermines the two foundations for moral values in the hearts of mankind. As for secularism in its extreme atheistic form, it completely demolishes these two foundations and replaces them with human whims, either the whims of a few rulers in dictatorial systems or the whims of the majority in democratic systems.

    "Have you seen the one who has taken his own desire as his god? Would you then be a guardian over him?" [Al-Furqan:43].



  • Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @Not Possible: You are missrepresenting Mr. Jinnah. What he's talking about here is 'religious freedom' in a Muslim state.

    A Muslim state as per Islam from Muhammad (SAW) is 'plural' in nature. Every person has 'freedom' to excersize his or her religion.

    Secondly, there is no 'discrimination' among Muslims based on caste, creed, colour, language, etc etc.

    First question;

    (1) How do you substantiate this claim of Mr. Jinnah wanting a 'secular' Pakistan ?

    I claim;

    (a) Mr. Allama Iqbal

    (b) Mr. Jinnah

    (c) as well all the millions of Muslims of Indian subcontinent

    who struggled for Pakistan, who made Pakistan possible, none of them wanted 'secular' Pakistan or 'secularism' in Pakistan.

    ..and I can prove my claim through rational arguments. I have words of Mr. Jinnah as evidence. And I have more arguments to support my claim.



  • The religious parties, feudals and generals.



  • Interestingly, this ad was in the paper today:



  • Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @khanseena1: How do you substantiate your claim ?

    This is just the first question, of the many I have for you, all of you, who subscribe to secularism.



  • People play with words all the time. Dont pick on words focus on the underlying concept.

    What is secularism? a divine constitution? only religous law is divine. Islam is divine.

    By Secularism I dont mean absence of religion, not at all. By secularism I mean freedom to pratice ones religion, free from oppression and persecution in the name of faith, ethnicty, caste creed or language. Thats exactly what the Quaid said.

    If the defintion I ascribe to Secularism holds true, i.e. freedom to express or live according to ones faith and values is a true sense of secularism, then according to what you have said that Islam gurantees these freedoms that would mean the divine law of Islam itself is secular.

    Consider this if Islam gives these freedoms to minorities and we didnt consider secularism as a western god less concept but one that Islam itself gave then would the word secular seem that bad?



  • Quaid-e-Azam was a Khoja Ithna Ashari Shia, according to your version of Pakistan he would be called kafir in his own state and persecuted, hounded and butchered to death.

    So basicaly the Quaids vison was to create a State where he would have been abused, called a kafir and then be killed. hmm intresting very intresting. fascinating!



  • Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @Not Possible: If you want to use Mr. Jinnah as your 'scapegoat', then I'll prove to you through Mr. Jinnah's discourse, that he wanted a Muslim Pakistan, a Muslim state, a state where Islam's ways, principles, standards, rules, laws, etc etc will be implemented.

    Then we can later talk about 'secularism', it being at odds with Islam, and why, as well as about 'those' who subscribe to secularism.



  • Pakistan was carved out of the subcontinent as a Muslim Majority State so that Muslims would live without any fear of oppression or subjugation being ruled by a Hindu Majority.

    State Religion according to its constitution is Islam.

    When Islam as a deen is there for Muslims to follow and abide by than there is no place left for any man made flawed -isms or –als to be slotted in.

    As long as a very large majority of Pakistanis is Muslim by faith, a Secular Pakistan will remain a wishful dream unlikely to be realized. Not in foreseeable future.



  • Seems like no one is reading what I have said. Okay take the word secular out if you want dosent bother me the least.

    My intention was to refer to a State that protects rights of all citizens regardless of faith, caste, creed or ethnic back ground. A state that does not discriminate on the basis of a majority or minority. Was that not the Quaid-e-Azams vison, was that not the vison of the founder of the nation?

    Quaid-e-Azam was a Khoja Ithna Ashari Shia, according to your version of Pakistan he would be called kafir in his own state and persecuted, hounded and butchered to death.

    So basicaly the Quaids vison was to create a State where he would have been abused, called a kafir and then be killed???



  • @Not Possible

    I agree with you - Islam and Secularism are compatible.



  • Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @Not Possible: I'm reading what you wrote. I just don't have the time to answer you.



  • if secularism means freedom for all religions, and equal rights for them...

    then Islamic system is based on secularism.



  • i agree with quaidkamazar bhai.



  • Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @Not Possible: Secularism means totally opposite to how you define it, or the definition that you find from other sources to copy/paste. Secularism does not mean (and I quote from above);


    freedom to pratice ones religion, free from oppression and persecution in the name of faith, ethnicty, caste creed or language.


    There is no such thing as 'persecution in the name of faith'. Especially from Muslims. 1400+ years of history of Muslims should prove it more than enough times for you to trust Muslims on this.


    (1) Secularism in-fact means, allegiance to no religion at all. Secularism wants all religions to die. And for damn good reasons, that can be explained.

    (2) Secularism does not mean 'freedom'. Secularism means 'slavery', 'oppression', 'persecution' on a universal scale, at the hands of those human beings who promote it i.e., Zionists/Unjust Jews and all of their supporters, slaves, etc etc.


    @Not Possible: The definition of 'secularism' that you advertise to everyone here, has never held true

    We can see, we can note this past century as ample example of it.

    (1) There is no right to free speech in the west. There is only 'right to free speech as long as you do what they want you to do'. As long as you do as who wants you to do ? Zionists/Unjust Jews and their supporters, their slaves, the people who they control, etc etc.

    (a) The happening at the many G20 meetings should be more than enough proof of that

    (b) Talk of injustice of Zionists/Unjust Jews and their supporters, their slaves, etc etc, publicly in the west and see what happens to you

    (c) Talk against anything Zionists/Unjust Jews and their supporters, their slaves, etc etc, want to do publicly in the west, and see what happens to you

    (d) Interfere in 'unjust' plans of Zionists/Unjust Jews and their supporters, their slaves, etc etc in the west, and see what happens to you

    (e) note the sharp difference between rich and poor in the west ? Research the underlying reasons behind it. Try to correct those reasons and see what happens to you



  • haris bhai

    how you substantiate your claim?

    india is a secular state. you think all people there abandoned there religion. in all secular states in world all people are free to practice any religion they like.



  • Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @Not Possible: Tell me;

    (1) Are you a Muslim ?

    This question needs to be answered for 'intellectual' 'discourse'. I will use this information in one part of my arguments.

    (2) Have you researched Islam in detail ?

    (3) Have you researched secularism in detail ?

    (4) Have you compared the many details of Islam and Secularism, keeping in view thousands of years of history of mankind ?



  • @HK

    "Secularism in-fact means, allegiance to no religion at all. Secularism wants all religions to die."

    Are you kidding me? I thought you were educated individual. Do you think Republicans (dominated by practicing Christians) in America want Christianity to die? BJP (dominated by practicing Hindus) want Hinduism to die?

    Your statement is a joke and seems like coming out of typical uneducated mullah. Where did you learn about secularism. Would you mind sharing your resources?



  • Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @shirazi: (1) Do you have knowledge of history ?

    Your words force me to believe you have zero knowledge of history. In-fact you don't care about history. You think its worthless, boring.

    On the contrary, history has 'powerful' lessons for those who understand, for those who have 'high aspirations', especially conquerors.


    Do you 'understand' my words when I say;

    (a) Zionists/Unjust Jews control the entire western world

    Whether Christians like it or not, they are in total!, and I repeat, total! control of 'Zionists/Unjust Jews'. In good time, these same Christians will ask Muslims to help them get rid of slavery at the hands of 'Zionists/Unjust Jews'.

    Republicans ? Aren't they already 'willing slaves' at the hands of the same Zionists/Unjust Jews ? Haven't they been slaving it out to them for decades! ?

    Have they shown any signs, they want to fight or end their slavery at the hands of Zionists/Unjust Jews ?

    Do you understand how Zionists/Unjust Jews have been able to control them, rule over them for centuries ?

    (b) History of Hindus tells us, they have always been 'willing' 'slaves' to whoever has 'conquered' them, plus they have always been 'willing' 'slaves' to their 'humanly' 'desires', 'lust'

    We/Muslims have ruled over Hindus' for 1000 years. Remember any of it ?

    Perhaps you don't see the numbers of Hindus' accepting Islam. I notice some of them from time to time.


    (2) Btw, have you watched, have you been keeping up with the mass media stuff I'v posted on the;

    thread: Programs in Western Mass Media of Interest to Muslims

    ?