Deception and Duplicity!



  • MG-

    So far most comments have had to do with the idealism of Khilafat. That is OK.

    But can someone deal with obvious nuts and bolts issues of over population , poverty, lack of infra-structure, political/ administrative organization of the governing structure etc.
    Or comment on the historical perspective of the same.



  • allow me please to talk about 'over population' to bust the myth.

    <div>pakistan is an agriculture based country, land is controlled by government and elite feudal families.  50% of cultivatable land is vacant.  country people move to city in search of economic opportunities, cities are not maintained properly, mostly still with the infrastructure that was left by british raj hence we feel congestion.</div>

    <div>how does islam address the issue of land ownership/cultivation? a simple application of this principle can address the issue of population distribution, poverty, and administrative organization. </div>

    <div>when i travel via motorway, i see vast pieces of land inhibited by small population, you would see that land that we have is much much larger, but because of wrong policies we are facing problems.</div>

    <div>ngo present this as over population and start setup clinics to stop people from producing more children, this is there solution to the issue?</div>



  • shimatoree, thanks. I'll be back later when I've had time to think things over in response to what you said.

    Meanwhile, what Salam Sahib states about overpopulation is also something to be borne in mind. Besides which, as soon as a country takes off economically, the population rate goes down, Iran being a case in point.



  • Mg-        I must respectfully disgaree with the statements made about over population. One of the things that has to be kept in mind for anyone who is going to be in the position to make decisions for the future-( Caliph) and population is something that if you make decsision today- the effects will not change the situation on the ground till 30 years down. For example- to day in Pakistan 65 % of the population is under 25 years of age.That means that all these people are going to get into the reproductive cycle pretty soon and if everyone has just 4 kids- in the next 10 years the population will at the very least double.Now we will need water and food for them in addition to othetr things. We will need to plan for that NOW. Yes a lot of land is in control of the big land owners today. So my question would be how would the Caliph re-distribute the land amongst the landless and by what justification of law since it is my understanding from Modoodi et al that re-distribution would be illegal  and against Islamic principles. Is that true. Also please help me undrestand how would a Caliph sitting in Mecca put in place the administrative steps to achieve Khursheed Shah to give up his land to the poor.



  • there are issues, no disagreement on that, planning is needed, but proper view point is also needed.

    <div>

    <div>population is dense in the cities and cities lack infrastructure to support this population, right, but is the population density too much for area of Pakistan? well european countries are more densely populated compared with pakistan... well another dimension of discussion.. point is density of population is not issue in Pakistan, it is unbalanced distribution that is causing issue.</div>

    <div>i don't know what is modudi's point of view on ownership of land, but my understanding based on practice of Prophet Muhammad PBUH is that 'mazara system' (where landlord lets farmer cultivate land in return for some portion of farm) is unislamic.  Either landlord has to cultivate himself or give it up, he/she has 3 years to use it or else it would taken back by state and given to one who can cultivate it.</div>

    <div>so imagine, 50% of agricultural land is vacant because it is either government's or some feudals, if that land plus other feudal lands are given to people we can see instant results.</div>

    <div>currently pakistan already produces wheat more than what it consumes, and that is with 50% production yield at 50% cultivatable land, imagine if population resources can be utilized with little assistance from state what results can be achieved, this is all practice solution for pakistan, would there be poverty?</div>

    <div>besides agriculture, pakistan is so rich in energy, coal/gas reserves are like gold mines, how can we people dying of hunger while living over gold mines, unimaginable...</div>

    </div>



  • Thank you.

    I would like to have further education-( for free!) about the issue of land/industry ownership and/ or the whole issue of capitalism and private enterprize.
    I am aware that there are varied interpretations put forth by various religious people.



  • shimatoree, you're doing this very well, I must say. We're back to the core of your earlier concern: land reform, the ownership of land under Islam. If no one runs after me with a shotgun for this, may I humbly request you here a reference to the source from which you learnt of Hazrat Umer's injunction against land ownership for Muslims in conquered lands. Perhaps there might be more to be gleaned from that. Otherwise, doesn't matter.

    The three year stipulation I too have experienced in my life. But surely more can be done than just that. How about the injunction I was once told about that everything in nature belongs to the Ummah equally? I should count land among that. And now it's back to Salam Sahib and his answers to your points.





  • MG-
    Hazrat Umar's ban for land ownership was for the conquered lands of Syria and Iran.
    Arabia did not have much arable land then anyway and land ownership was limited thus on a local level. When the Muslim Arabs realzied that the lands that they had conquered were far more prductive than their own- they tried to grab as much as they could.
    It needed  a great leader of Umar' stature to have forseen that and acted to forestall the problem.

    Source later.

    I still do not think land re-distribution is the only issue though it is a big one.
    And guess who will fight any attempt to land re-distritbution

    The Mullah of course.



  • MG,

    <div>I think you are referring to the hadith of prophet muhammad pbuh that "all muslims are partners in three things, fire (energy), water, and land. </div>

    <div>no one person, company or state can monopolize these, state must distribute these resources evenly.</div>

    <div>for example we see today that chaghi gold mine's rights were sold to australian company (right?) in return for peanuts, govt can't do that because it is not her property, it is property of people which means sole beneficiaries can only be people.</div>

    <div>according to meaning of hadith if land continues to be barren for 3 consecutive years, ownership rights are lost.</div>

    <div>islam has distinct ownership/distribution principles, some may think they seem like capitalism or socialism but that would be superficial view, as all these are different at the core, while there could be resemblances like a cat and lion may also have resemblances but need proper study.</div>



  • Thanks, Salam, that's exactly what I meant and it^s a very huge undertaking for any Muslim leader to stay letter-perfect on that one. Thanks, too, for the book title. Shall get hold of it and once read, put it forward for discussion..

    Shimatoree, to you, too, my thanks. Naturally, you're right to say land distribution is only one of the problems facing any Muslim State. As for the Mullah and his opposition to this or that, only a very strong ruler could withstand the pressure and put them in their place. If he's not present, then the whole enterprise, goes without saying, is doomed to failure.

    But I hope with all my heart that our time is coming, too, to find a hero in our midst. We haven't really had one in ever so long now. And the ones we've had have been, for the most part, flawed heroes.



  • @salam

    "some may think they seem like capitalism or socialism but that would be superficial view, as all these are different at the core"

    Salam

    ive asked you this on another thread.. but how is it so different at the core.. i would argue the opposite that at the core islamic socio economic values are very similar to the modern concept of a social welfare state..



  • So

    The question arises that

    to establish an egalitarian welfare state - how would the Caliph tackle the vested interests who own land, industry and commerce and wish to maintain the status quo ?



  • I'm really lost to understand why and how Khalafate can change the corrupt muslims of the world into Godfearing and pious people, All those who advocate it have some futile dreams of establishing a new world empire, uniting the splittered and exploiting the non existing oppertunities. Strangely the opposite forces have the same dream of world domination. These forces actively work to bring that possibilty closer to reality. This NWO is already here in somewhat loose shape and is clearly visible to those with eyes, while we talk about some Caliph. Why don't we get that the best soloution is not some central system that shall be implemented across the world but unity among muslims, seperate entities and yet united by their faith.



  • gv,

    <div>sorry, again i missed this thread.</div>

    <div>What is difference at core? </div>

    <div>

    <div>If we examine the Capitalist economic system we find that, in their view, it deals with man’s needs and the means of satisfying those needs.</div>

    <div>It only addresses the materialistic side of man’s life and it is established on three principles: </div>

    <div>1. There is a relative scarcity of commodities and services in relation to needs. This means the insufficiency of commodities and services to meet the ever-increasing needs of man. This is the society’s economic problem from their viewpoint.</div>

    <div>2. The value of a product which is the basis of most economic research and study.</div>

    <div>3. The price, and its role in production, consumption, and distribution. The price is the cornerstone of the Capitalist economic system.</div>

    <div>What makes commodities and services satisfy the needs, in capitalist viewpoint, is the benefit in these commodities and services. This benefit is an attribute which renders the thing desirable for satisfying a need. Since the need means the economic desire, then the economically beneficial thing is everything desired, whether it is essential or not, and even if some consider it beneficial and others consider it harmful. It is considered economically beneficial as long as there is someone who finds it desirable.</div>

    <div>This makes them consider things as beneficial from an economic viewpoint even if the public opinion considers them of no benefit, or harmful. </div>

    <div>Thus wine and hashish are beneficial things to the economists since there are people who want them.</div>

    <div>The economist looks upon the means of satisfaction, that is, the commodities and services, from the viewpoint that they satisfy a need, without taking any other factor into consideration. Thus, he looks at the needs and the benefits as they are, not as they should be i.e. he looks at benefit as satisfying a need, without taking anything else into consideration. So he would look at wine in its capacity of having an economic value because it satisfies the needs of some people, and he perceives the wine maker as a person who provides a service, considering this service as having an economic value, because it satisfies the need of some individuals.</div>

    </div>

    <div>

    <div>if you like you can purchase the book and read details</div>

    </div>

    <div>http://www.amazon.com/economic-system-Islam-Living/dp/8187856033/ref=sr_1_3?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285748390&sr=8-3
    </div>





  • <div>regarding:</div>

    <div>how would the Caliph tackle the vested interests who own land, industry and commerce and wish to maintain the status quo?</div>

    <div>like they say 'when paradigm shifts, everything goes back to zero', when ownership rules are changed, when rules on acquiring of wealth are changed, then all have to obey the laws.</div>

    <div>regarding the mulla challenge (mulla being one who studies in madrasah), first, they are a resource, second what do they have to say about highly notorious law NRO when it was passed did any 'fatwa' come? No, why because this state matter is none of their business, they are trained to be 'secular' by british raj, meaning to keep it to their masjid and preach how to use lota or how to hold a glass, so to me they are more like human resource that could be utilized for some good project, need thinking/policy making in this regard.</div>



  • @salam thanks for that.

    Yes that is indeed the free market economist creed but that is not how capitalism is applied in practice.

    As we know hashish is illegal in most countries in the west. Wine/alcohol is not but  that is because alcohol consumption is culturally acceptable in western nations and has been since time immemorial..

    In practice as we have seen throughout history  a society takes the price setting mechanism of capitalism and then regulates it according to that society's socio-cultural norms.

    So at the core modern democratic social welfare states are not very dissimilar to the classical islamic state which also encourages a free market in goods and services provided they are not detrimental to society. The key term here is social welfare... islam has been promoting this for 1400 years.



  • dear gv,

    <div>i haven't touched islam's perspective or view point on economic problem yet, but you intelligently identified (as evident above in your post) some core values that run contrary to islamic principles and already provided defense to them.</div>

    <div>i'll get back with islam's view point.</div>



  • i think there is one key point that needs to be highlighted to clarify or differentiate between ideology & science, science being universal irrespective of any view point, some thing universal.

    <div>ideology gives us system which defines how to distribute wealth, how posses it, how to spend/use it, this follows a particular view point about life.</div>

    <div>while economic science is about production, its improvement, invention, improvement of means etc, it is universal and not associated with any particular view point. </div>

    <div>for example view point on ownership differs in capitalism from that in islam or socialism is different than islam, however discussing improving production is technical issue, which is purely scientific.</div>