Women Liberation



  • Women Liberation

    I find Islam to be liberating not oppressive: women are partners.

    Islam is the first religion which systematically empowered women when women were considered as totally subservient to man. There was no concept of her being an independent entity and enjoying equal right with dignity. We live in a country where women are over-sexualised and sold as 'products' for capitalist gains. A woman's beauty is splashed around everywhere, and she is only judged by that. Islam tells a woman to cover up so that she is not abused as Western women are. Islam provides the security and respect to women community than other religions. The western countries are using the women as an entertainment channels. All the women in the world should think about themselves then decide what is right and what is wrong for them in other religions (than Islam)

    What is feminism? Nothing but women’s movement to empower her and to consider her full human being and not mere second sex as ‘Simon de Bouire called her. Thus we see in western countries until early part of twentieth century she did not enjoy an independent status. It was only after thirties of twentieth century that she won equal status legally and various western countries passed the laws to this effect. Yet patriarchy is looming large on her in these countries.

    Qur’an empowered her and gave equal status. Another important question is what is the difference between Islamic and western feminism or is there any difference at all. If we go by definition of feminism as an ideology of empowerment of women, there is no difference. On the other hand, women had no rights and but won through great deal of struggle and this struggle came to be known as ‘feminism’ i.e. women’s empowerment.

    But there are significant differences also between Islamic and western feminism. Islamic feminism is based on certain non-negotiable values i.e. equality with honour and dignity. Freedom has certain Islamic responsibility whereas in the west freedom tends to degenerate into licentiousness, though not in law but certainly in social and cultural practices. In western culture sexual freedom has become a matter of women’s right and sex has become matter of enjoyment and lost its sanctity as an instrument of procreation.

    Qur’an does lay down certain strict norms for sexual behavior. Both man woman have right to sexual gratification (a woman has as much right to sexual gratification as man) but within marital frame-work. There is no concept of freedom for extramarital sex in any form. Sex is permissible only with marital framework. Sex, as far as Islam is concerned, is not mere enjoyment but an act for procreations and hence has sanctity.

    It is important here to emphasize that in a patriarchal society men decided the norms of sexual behavior. It was theorized that man has greater urge for sex and hence he needs multiple wives and woman tends to be passive and hence has to be content with one. This is not true as far as Qur’an is concerned. Qur’an’s approach is very different. It is not greater or lesser degree of sexual urge which necessitates multiple or monogamous marriage.

    Whole emphasis is on monogamous marriage (in both the Qur’anic verses i.e. 4:3 and 4:129). Multiple marriages were permitted only to take care of widows and orphans and not for greater sexual urge and the verse 4:129 gives the norm of monogamy and not to leave first wife in suspense or neglected. Thus as far as Qur’an is concerned sexual gratification is a non-negotiable right for both man woman. And hence a divorcee and a widow are also permitted to marry and gratify their sexual urge.

    Also, in western capitalist countries women’s dignity has been compromised and she has been reduced to a commodity to be exploited. Her semi-naked postures and her sexuality is exploited commercially unabashedly. It is totally against the concept of woman’s honour and dignity. Unfortunately western feminists do not consider this as objectionable but accept it as part of woman’s freedom. Some (though not many) even advocate prostitution as woman’s right to earn her bread.

    This is against the concept of Islamic feminism as while sanctioning sexual gratification as much right of woman as that of man, it prohibits extra-marital sexual liaison and on one hand upholds dignity and honour of woman and on the other, exalts sex on the level of sanctity and restricts it for procreation.. Thus it would be seen that discourse of Islamic feminism, while having something in common with modern western feminism, it also significantly differs from it. Islamic feminists have to observe certain norms which modern western feminists are not obliged to.

    There is institutionalised oppression of women in all cultures. In India Hindu female foetocide numbers approximately two million every year. Hinduism is rife with sexism. Women are classed as objects owned by men. The Muslims from the Sub-continent were converted from Hinduism. They carry even now a lot of Hindu traditions of dishonouring women mostly in isolated ruler areas. In urban areas Muslims are well educated both Islamically and worldly and women have all the rights given by Islam.

    UNICEF photo of the year shows, a bridegroom, 40, with his 11-year-old bride in Afghanistan. The bridegroom is going to take care of her and their future children. UNICEF photo of the year must show that the teenage pregnancies and abortion, drug addiction, binge drinking and anti-social behavior is on the rise in Britain. All of them are burden on British tax-payers. This is sickening. It's no wonder Great Britain is in such a bad shape. Ten years old British girls are haveing babies out of wedlock. They are not allowed to get married but are allowed to have babies. Teenage pregnancy rate in Great Britain is the highest in Western Europe. It is a civilised country and Yemen is a backward country because it allows young girls to get married.

    The Holy Quran gives more rights to women than the so called western civilisation.

    Western Secularism cannot teach Muslims how to treat women. Islam teaches us how to be civilised. Islam is a middle path. Women are even abused in the UK Parliament, which is called the Mother of Parliament. It is not just verbal abuse the female MPs have had to deal with. The tradition of killing women for family honour is a “curse”. Violence against women is a global phenomenon. An Australian Judge failed to jail nine males who admitted gang-raping a 10-year old Aboriginal girl, by saying the victim probably agreed to have sex with them. More than half the babies born to British mothers this year will be outside marriage for the first time since records begins. There is a steady decline in marriage among British couples. Nearly all births to Pakistani mothers are within wedlock.

    The veil signified the rejection of an unacceptable system of values which debased women while Islam elevated women to a position of honour and respect. It is not liberation, where women go naked. It is just oppression, because men want to see them naked. Miniskirts and plunging necklines represent oppression. Veil is a sign of liberation from a prevailing and dangerous western, secular norm – namely, a view of women purely as sexual objects. Western culture is liberalism, and that is in itself a set of norms. But now the time has come that liberalism must change its attitudes because Britain and the whole of West has undergone significant change. It is a fact that a veil cannot be equated with forced marriages, female circumcision or unequal education for girls. The real difference between man and woman is that they have different kinds of bodies designed for very different purposes, and they have also different kinds of mind because these, too, are designed to contribute differently to human needs and purposes. Men tend to be more imaginative and have more flair than women, but women are much more tenacious and better at multilasking than men.

    Muslim boys and Girls need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Male and female Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. Muslim youths feel torn between two cultures, thanks to the state schools with monolingual non-Muslim teachers. Islam teaches Muslims youths to be virgin but western education system teaches the opposite. It makes their lives very confusing. They suffer from Identity Crises. The solution is that each and every Muslim child should be in state funded Muslim schools because western education makes a man stupid and selfish according to Lord Bertrand Russell.

    Iftikhar Ahmad

    http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk



  • IftikharA

    western women don't see it freedom... For them freedom is material, for example freedom lie in their pants... Islam is against such material freedom....

    for example Mr A has a daughter and his daughter wants to date with some one lets say Mr B. Now if Mr A gives permission to his daughter to date with Mr B. That is what they call freedom. I mean if daugther of Mr A wants to sleep with 10 men... Mr A has got no right to educate his daughter about moral corruption which she has been spreading in the vein of society...

    But tragedy is amazing.... Westren women are now turning towards islamic concept of freedom, on the other hand,Majority of Muslims Women are turning toward Western concept of freedom. A hell on earth



  • No most of women of the West believe in the Right to have an Open Legs Policy. According to them Closed Legs need to be liberated.

    thats all.



  • Listen guys.. the things you are saying about women in the west is not only ignorant, it is downright offensive and chauvinistic

    western women are neither wh0res, nor are they any less worthy of respect than the women in your homes. It is not your place to judge their morals.

    It is this attitude that muslim men carry to the west. they respect only the women in their homes but consider all other women there prostitutes. It is a disgusting and deplorable kind of arrogance which succeeds only blackening muslims everywhere.

    You know even if western women have no respect for themselves, that does not entitle you to disrespect them you know. If you think it does, well then shame on you.



  • listen bajwa

    western women are neither wh0res, nor are they any less worthy of respect than the women in your homes. It is not your place to judge their morals.

    Respect Isn't given it's Earned. Westren culture has made women whores. The fault doesn't lie with women, fault is with men who want open woman to enjoy. A respect for Women isn't binkies or skirts but respect lies in her modesty... Westerner has made women an object of desires that is what we have been seeing in their movies/daramas and cultures. There is no problem in discussing such evil which is poising the veins of their society... In creation of such society Westren women has equally involved in portaying themselves as an object of sex in the minds of youth.

    It is this attitude that muslim men carry to the west. they respect only the women in their homes but consider all other women there prostitutes. It is a disgusting and deplorable kind of arrogance which succeeds only blackening muslims everywhere.

    Women are equally respectable but we are dicussing difference of thinking between Islamic concept of freedom and westren Concept of freedom... A western woman loves to join as many boy friends as she can. How it disrespects westren women.. They are disrespecting themselves..



  • @ Oblivion

    Exactly who the heck do you think you are to term all western women that way??

    Fact is that you guys condemn western women without even understanding the nature of their freedom.

    Your perverted minds starts and ends with sex and sexual freedom. A woman's right in the west to sleep with whoever she wishes is only a minor aspect of her freedom, and it is a freedom that not all exploit to a promiscuous level.

    You have absolutely no right to term a western woman a whore simply because she lives in an environment that your mind cannot understand.

    Let me also tell you that you are sadly mistaken if you beleive that women in Pakistan and other muslim countries aren't sexualized. In fact women there are sexualized and objectified to the same extent but in a completely different way. when you take a 13 year old girl and put an abaya on her, she instantly becomes an object of sexual desire. WHy/ because in these cultures an abaya is a sign of sexual maturity. So where in the west women are objectified by undressing, in muslim cultures they are objectified by completely covering them.

    Half of my family is western. And i take serious offense at your assumption that all western women are wh0res when my mother, my sister and my cousins are western women. i KNOW they have stronger morals than some of the loose ladies in pakistan. Who the heck are you to come and pass a judgement on them because they live in the west?

    in fact who the heck are you to pass judgement on western women when you are neither western nor a woman, nor do you have any knowledge of western society other than the vitriol you pick up off the net?

    And who the heck are you to say that western women "love to have as many boyfriends as possible"? what do you know of it? Have you had a western girlfriend? do you have a western female friend or acquaintance? have you ever even spoken to a western woman? Is there some gallup poll that you are privy to that proves your assumption?

    You find it so easy to generalize all western women (even though western cultures can range from puritan to promiscuous). But fact is that you have no clue what you are talking about.

    And again i repeat what i said. just because SOME women disrepect themselves does not give YOU permission to disrespect them.

    I am all for discussing the horrible disrespect and injustice faced by women across the planet. But for you to have the arrogance to think that women in YOUR society are "better" than women in any other society quite simply misses the point.

    If you are arguing for more respect, protection and justice for women you better start by wiping the disrespect, perversion and chauvinism out of your own mind first before you arrogantly pass judgement on western women in particular.

    Fix your attitude towards women oblivion. Once you truly respect women THEN you can talk about it. a person who respects women does NOT generalize billions of women and call them all wh0res because of the culture they were born in to.



  • bajwa..

    Exactly who the heck do you think you are to term all western women that way??

    don't twist words, bajwa. I never said, all western women are whores... We are talking about majority..... ..

    Fact is that you guys condemn western women without even understanding the nature of their freedom.

    What is nature of their freedom?... and who is condemning western women... We are condemning their way of thinking... We are condemning their culture which made them to live a life full of miseries..

    Do you think we should respect their culture and their way of thinking....

    باجوہ صاحب اپ نے ہماری بات کو سمجا ہی نہیں اور اتنا بڑا لیکچر جار دیا



  • @ Oblivion

    oh yeah so talking about the "majority" certainly makes it a whole lot less offensive right?

    I am saying that you have neither cause nor knowledge to make that judgement.

    I, on the other hand, have lived my life in both cultures and i belong to both. And i can assure you that this massive gulf that you think exists between women here and women there is purely fictitious. Western women are no different from your mothers or sisters except in terms of what degree their men make their decisions for them.

    The freedom western women have is to make their own decisions. They are not subject to male domination, they are not cubject to societal demands, they are not subject to cahuvinist legislation and they are certainly not subordinate to the male gender in any way, both legally or socially.

    i know plenty of people point to the incindences of rape and teen pregnancies in the west as some sort of "proof". Let me then tell you that there is absolutely no reason for you to think that women in Pakistan aren't subject to such crimes to the same degree. The only difference is that in the west women report the rape whereas in pakistna only a stupid woman reports a rape since this pious society of our would immediately ostracize her (or if it was up to the mullahs, stone her for adultery).

    Anyhow you say you are condemning their way of thinking. But i can tell from your ignorant generalizations that you simply have no clue about the way they think.

    If you knew, you would not focus your ire on their sexual freedom. If you knew, you would learn a thing or two about respecting the equality of women and acknowledging the fact that in today's age a woman can do pretty much anything a man can do, a woman can successfully LEAD men and a woman is just as capable of independent decisionmaking as a man.

    but no.. that you will neither accept nor even acknowledge. you will always bring it back to the fact that a western woman has the legal right to sleep with whoever she wishes and that is the SOLE REASON why you condemn her and that is SOLE reason that you call majority of the wh0res.

    I am in no way advocating that we copy their culture. But yeah i do certainly expect us to have the brains to accept where they actually have gotten something RIGHT and implement it according to our values rather than focus only on the whole sexual angle

    I know of no breed of man more obsessed with sex and sexuality than the overtly "pious" preacher.

    You guys invariably make it sound like sex is the the ONLY defining feature of western women whereas it simply isn't.

    it may be the defining feature in YOUR minds... but that's essentially because you're all a bunch of pervs... (sorry i mean MAJORITY of you are pervs )



  • I am saying that you have neither cause nor knowledge to make that judgement.

    What makes you pass to judgment on my knowledge... I am speaking what i have been seeing in their culture... They had made women an object of desires... they have made their women to decorate their stores/shops... Do you want me to praise and respect such culture which is worst on this planet earth... Do you like and respect women in strips clubs.... Do you like women working with men for 8 hours... Do you like women in skirts..... Do you like sex scence in their movies..... Why dont you admit the dark side of their freedom..

    Western women are no different from your mothers or sisters except in terms of what degree their men make their decisions for them.

    Women is respectable relation on earth but who is abusing this relation in form Pimps --- in form strips clubs--- in form girls friend... We aren't not abusing... Western are abusing women in the name of freedom... and you're abusing all the pious women on earth by supporting their hollow values.....bajwa, i don't know in what part of the world you're living... You must be living in north pole :)

    The freedom western women have is to make their own decisions.

    That's material i am talking about... Freedom doesn't mean break the pillar of societies.... We are talking about the same decisions... If daughter of Mr A wants destroy his dignity -- his honor by dating with someone then who give her right to destroy pillar of society...

    Anyhow you say you are condemning their way of thinking. But i can tell from your ignorant generalizations that you simply have no clue about the way they think.

    باجوہ

    میں نے بہت سی مغربی لڑکیو سے بات کی ہے اس بارے میں --- میں نے نے چند لڑکیو سے یہ سوال بھی کے .... کے جو عورتیں سٹریپ کلب میں کام کرتی ہیں کیا وہ ان کے خیال میں ٹھیک ہے.... زیادہ تر لڑکیوں نے یہ ہی جواب دیا کے اگر ان کو اس کام پی کوئی مجبور نہیں کر رہا تو ٹھیک ہے .... یعنی ان کی سوچ میں اور آزادی میں اچھائی اور برائی کی تمیز ختم ہو گئی --- اور باجوہ صاحب مجے یہ سمج نہیں اتی اپ کون سی دنیا میں زندگی گزار ہیں --- میربانی فرما کے آج کی بات کریں ٢٠ سال پہلے والی قصے کہانیاں نہ سنائیں -- اپ علم میں اضافہ کریں --- جن پریوں والے قصوں سے اپ سوچ کو سکون نہ پونچائیں --- شکریہ



  • @ oblivion

    You are passing a judgement on all western women without having any first-hand knowledge and without having any contact whatsoever to a western woman.

    Again in your post you have focused entirely on the existence of strip clubs. You make it sound like all western women work as prostitutes or in strip clubs. Which is a plain stupid assumption.

    Just as there are prostitutes even in the most pious of muslim countries there are strippers and prostitutes in the west. The existence of prostitutes in a society in NO WAY means that all or even a majority of women engage in such professions.

    The only difference between the west and here is that here we are hypocrites who hide our carnal desires and the thriving protitution market that exists... whereas in the west they have ceased hiding it. Btw they do not encourage it. Young girls aren;t taught to strip in schools if that's what you think. In fact great effort is made to educate women to such a degree that prostitution is neither desirable nor feasible for them. Tell me.. what do muslim societies do to reduce prostitution?? absolutely NOTHING.. why?? because they are too stuck up to even admit officially that such a thing exists.

    So please drop the nonsense "strip club at every corner" argument. All these strip clubs and naked women exist only in your pervy mind and it has absolutely NO realtion to reality.

    You are condemning and judging western women even though you have a chauvinistic, overly sexualized and completely incorrect perception of western culture (which isn;t as cohesive as you would like to think it is).

    I also find it awful that you were able to combine "stripping" and "working for 8 hours with men" in the same sentence as if the two were even REMOTELY the same.

    A woman prostituting herself is one thing. A woman working in a profession to make a living is quite another. Only in your mind are the two linked.. but that is because you are a perv and you believe mixing of the genders in the workplace will result in massive orgies and adultery. Again the figment of a pervy imagination.

    I do not support nudity on TV or overt sexuality in public. No doubt this is an element of western culture that surely could be made better. However for you to make it sound like it is the DEFINING aspect of western culture and that prostitution is the natural consequence of western culture shows only your ignorance and nothing more.

    It is you who are abusing western women because your limited knowledge makes you think they are no more than sex-workers.

    As to the "honor" aspect of the debate. Clearly you have confused your culture with your religion. In your patriarchal culture a man's "honor" is defined by the women he controls. In Islam a woman's honor is HERS. That is one way in which the west actually is more islamic than our oh-so-pious muslim nations. Western culture respects a woman's right to make her own decisions. This is a right that the Quran gives to all women. However only in YOUR culture have women been robbed of this right because by your culture a woman's honor is not hers, but rather the property of her male relatives.

    Theek hai aap ney maashallah bohut maghribi larkion sey baat ki hai... good for you.. but if you actually KNEW anything you would not be sitting so arrogantly judging something you clearly know nothing about.

    Again i repeat. I do not in any way propose that we copy western culture.. what i AM saying is that you have no bloody right to judge them as you do.



  • You are passing a judgement on all western women without having any first-hand knowledge and without having any contact whatsoever to a western woman.

    Bajwa not all but majority.... You even don't understand this concept of majority -- If total population is 100% and we divide population into two categories like 51% and 49% then i am talking about 51% women... When i said about majority, i am talking about thinking of that 51% women...

    Again in your post you have focused entirely on the existence of strip clubs. You make it sound like all western women work as prostitutes or in strip clubs. Which is a plain stupid assumption.

    Purpose of my post is to make you understand, their way of thinking but it seems you've sworn not to understand...

    Again i repeat. I do not in any way propose that we copy western culture.. what i AM saying is that you have no bloody right to judge them as you do.

    No one is judging them, Simply you'r not understanding... We are discussing their way of thinking and the freedom in their thougt --

    I hope this verse of iqbal would clear my message

    _The ecstasy of thought is dangerous in a nation

    Where the individuals observe no rule._



  • yaar

    Hk

    my observation is based on the frat parties in Perdue and UT

    And the amount of the helped seeked in the prenatal centres and induction of people for counseling.

    And oh btw i know you have a different opinion of the people of the west but seriously you will still be brown buddy regardless of what you do to please the whites.



  • @ NNL

    seriously.. frat parties?? you seriously consider that grounds for speaking of all (majority) of western women in that tone? Get your head outta the movies man.

    And the amount of help sought is also a totally fictitious number. And even if you have a specific study to quote, there is no study that indicates numbers are any different in pakistan for instance.

    And i can not but laugh at your pitiful jibe at me being a brownie and wanting to please the whites. You simply do not have the capacity to understand where i am coming from.

    it's is not I who has to please the browns or the whites. As a mix it is both you brownies and those whities that ought to be honoring ME. The future is mixed and so am i.

    I take no side save that of truth. What you are saying about western women and morals is untrue. That does not make the western narrative true either. But just because the West got it wrong too, doesn't automatically mean you got it right. Sitting on the cultural, ethnic and linguistic fence as i do, i can assure you that you're all behaving and speaking like mor0ns.



  • @hkbajwa

    I have a bit off topic question, what law do those westerners follow? Whatever they do in their clubs is 'allowed' by their laws derived by boundless freedom. I think Allama Iqbal is saying the same thing in obilvions quote 'her band se azaad'.

    We are not the only hypocrites, they are even bigger hypocrites with their boundless democracy and freedom that they say they practice.

    What oblivion is pointing at that some of them (not all) are doing, they can not justify it.

    We are doing the same here, by women liberation (even men) we mean the same boundless freedom which is nothing but a mess.



  • I take no side save that of truth. What you are saying about western women and morals is untrue. That does not make the western narrative true either. But just because the West got it wrong too, doesn't automatically mean you got it right. Sitting on the cultural, ethnic and linguistic fence as i do, i can assure you that you're all behaving and speaking like mor0ns.

    تیری خرد پہ ہے غالب فرنگیو ن کا فسوں

    bajwa, The West has cast a spell on your heart and mind: Find a cure yourself in islamic way of life

    حیات کیا ہے , خیال -و -نظر کی مجذوبی

    Bajwa, fix one’s mind and gaze on goal is life, in fact:



  • life h20

    It's good to see, that you've got the point but bajwa seems centuries behind



  • @ LIfe

    The "they are bigger hypocrites" argument is no argument at all.

    I do not even for a se3cond delude myself into thinking that western culture is in any way superior to ours. In some areas they excel whereas in others we excel. The cumulative effect is that western culture averages out to be as great (or as crappy - depending on how you look at it) as ours.

    There is no cause for arrogance on our part.

    There is also no cause to label majority of western women as immoral harlots simply because of the cultural norms in which they are raised.

    I take issue with labelling these women as immoral especially when the people doing the labelling have no point of reference, no personal experience and no knowledge about the mind of the western woman.

    My mother, my sister and my cousins can be considered western women. And by their affiliation to this culture some people have the temerity to judge them as "bad" women, as if that is the inevitable result of western culture. I am telling them that immorality is NOT an inevitable result of western culture, in fact it is not even the case witht he majority.

    Sure their perception of freedom differs from yours and they certainly do no agree with the gender roles that you consider to be the "correct" ones, but again... no cause for judging them that way.

    In fact this horrible chauvinism and misplaced arrogance of muslim males in western society is a daily slap to everybody from those cultures.

    Time and time again muslim men convicted of rape have tried to justify their sexual violence to themselves by saying that the victim was western and therefore it doesn;t matter. In fact in their minds raping a western woman is OK because she must naturally be a wh0re.

    This is of coruse the most extreme manifestation of this disgusting chauvinism and moral arrogance. People condemning western women like that is the foundation on which such acts are justified by sick people.

    I would think that decent people give the benefit of the doubt and refrain from referring to a group of women in such a derogatory fashion until it is proven beyond doubt that the woman is thus.

    The extremely weak and circumstantial evidence provided by the "western-women-are-hos" platoon is no basis for such disrespect.



  • @oblivion I agree with Bajwa here.

    @hkbajwa

    When I said them bigger hypocrites, i said it because they say their freedom is perfect.

    But you are right, we do the same here, we free ourselves by saying them wrong.

    When I was very young, I asked my cousin why he is watching those half naked women dancing, he replied that it is not wrong to see them because they are hindus/non-muslims. But I never agreed.

    Liberation or freedom has to have some bounds, some rules. As a muslim, both men and women know the rules they are free within.



  • life h20

    @oblivion I agree with Bajwa here.

    You didn't get the point of bajwa, indirectly, he is saying, if someone is doing wrong, you don't need to point him that he is wrong. stay silent!!!! as westerner are silent --- This is lead to iqbal quotes "har band se azad" ... Jab banda har band azad se azad ho jata hai to phir woh bajwa ki tarah ho jata hai, Jis kay samney burai ko burai bhi kaha jaye to usay achay nahi lgta... Woh personal cheez pe a jata hai, apnay khandan ki fikar karta hai -- apni riwayat ko tarjee deta hai haq batil pe -- ap ne apnay cousin ko kaha kay yeh na dekha karo, or ap ka cousin ap ko nahi pata tha ap ka cousin "har band se azad ho chuka hai" -- Us ne apni aik azad soch banai hoi thi -- Jis ki soch yeh keh rahi thi kay agar ghair muslim orton ki nanga dekha jaye to koi gunah ya buri baat nahi thi.... Yeh woh baat hai jo main ap ko samja raha tha.... or ap ne bohat achi example di ---or aik baat bajwa ne gol kar di... main ne tamam westrener ko kabi bhi bura nahi kaha... Muje pata hai har jaga achay buray log hotay hain..

    ;)



  • @ Oblivion

    It is you who failed to understand my point.

    My point is that you have no business exhibiting the arrogance that lets you speak of western women in the most derogatory fashion possible.

    I am essentially saying that you have no business talking about the inequities of western culture when the one you belong to is just as morally corrupt.

    You also have no business making proclamations regarding the moral soundness of western women because

    1. western culture spans the entire spectrum of human values from promiscuous to puritan. There is no unified "western culture" which you can generalize with such ease as you do. If you had even the slightest actual exposure to tthese cultures, you would undestand this

    2. you have no idea how these varied cultural norms are interpreted and implemented by western women. You have absolutely no direct contact with any western women so you really have no idea how it affects them.

    I particularly take issue with the fact that you make immorality and promiscuity sound like the inevitable result of western cultures. That is quite simply not the case.

    I find it extremely harmful that muslim men develop this misplaced superiority complex. In the most extreme of cases, this type of thinking is used by sick muslims to justify the most horrible of violations of western women.