کیا عوامی جمہوری حکومت کا مطلب مالی بد عنوان حکومت ہے



  • کیا ہم پھر سے ان لوگوں کو بر سر اقتدار لانا چاہتے ہیں

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    اگر آپ کا جواب ہاں میں ہے تو پھر آپ کے ساتھ کسی قسم کی ہمدردی نہیں کی جا سکتی

    ف ج



  • Of course, no to PPP, yes to PMLN.



  • جی ہاں - لکھاری جی نے جو لکھا ہے ویسا ہی ہو رہا ہے

    مگر ایسا نہیں ہونا چاہیے

    اگر ایسا نہیں ہونا چاہیے تو ہمیں اپنا ووٹ سوچ سمجھ کر دینا ہو گا



  • Emotionally Idle (فارغ جذباتی) or Sentimental but Free,

    Faisal Karim Kundi, PPP – The Deputy Speaker of National Assembly 2008-2013

    Rauf Clasra points out that a young PPP politician, Faisal Karim Kundi – The Deputy Speaker of National Assembly 2008-2013, acquired a government property of value Rs.7 billion with a proxy (Benami) transaction in his cousin’s name with a price tag of just Rs.360 million. A 2000% profit in just one day or even more if you consider that payments will be made in installments. This is clearly a case of embezzlement. How fulfilling is it that the last name of the accused, Kundi, literally means a hook.

    I hope that Nawaz Sharif, the favorite future Prime Minister of this website and the blue-eyed boy of the United State government (continuation of Drone attacks with deceptive complicity will confirm) will not make Muk-Muka on such loot and will prosecute such people. I am also certain that all the Electable(s), in PMLN campgrounds, will be eager to do similar transactions.

    My solution to this problem is completely different. Instead of media's toothless exposing of such scandals and in the absence of any checks on the corruption, it should be better if the media just explains the detail process of corruption and unearth every possible loophole in the system. That would encourage every crook and wishful-crook to get into the competition of loot. An overload of corruption on the system will bring the natural plugs. Let me know if this method has been tried anywhere in the world before.



  • I am not able to get Rauf's point that how by approving a development scheme , funds go to any person.

    My understanding is that when a development scheme is approved , its assigned to a govt department and funds go to department. how come someone say that so much funds have been goven to a certain legislator ?



  • All development funds flow from government coffers to corruption share-holder through a contractor. Riaz Malik being one of the most powerful people in Pakistan is an open proof of that.

    There should be a law that the government (an independent accountability entity) has the full authority to conduct a spot audit of a contractor's accounts. No need to do complicated investigations. Just follow the money trail.

    Here is Mr. Hook

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3C97TE_0Nc



  • Of course, no to PPP, yes to PMLN.

    The name will be changed. Nothing else will happen.



  • "The name will be changed. Nothing else will happen."

    Don't agree. That is a very simplistic approach. Politics is much more than that. There is nothing perfect. Among the available choices, PMLN is far above and better than any of their viable rivals in the field.



  • @GT Saab

    "Among the available choices, PMLN is far above and better than any of their viable rivals in the field."

    
    Would you elaborate some reasons behind this statement?


  • "Would you elaborate some reasons behind this statement?"

    Don't want to get into a debate, but here are some points:

    -PMLN is a viable national party. Only other one is PPP. Most other parties are regional, or ethnic or not politically viable.

    • Their leadership does not depend for their livelihood on politics.

    • Their past tenures in office are relatively free of corruption and scandals.

    • They want to get into power through democratic means and want establishment to stay out of politics.

    • They try to improve governance and do some constructive work while in office.

    • They keep their elected members in check for their behavior as far as they can.

    • They take stand on national issues within practical limits.



  • @GT Saab

    Looking at your points I can understand why you don't want to get into debate.

    "Their leadership does not depend for their livelihood on politics."

    Really? if you haven't noticed our political elite doesn't belong to working class. For many it's negative but are pitching this as positive trait?

    "Their past tenures in office are relatively free of corruption and scandals."

    Again very subjective opinion - beauty lies in the eyes of beholder. To me they are as corrupt as any other party.

    "They want to get into power through democratic means and want establishment to stay out of politics."

    Now this is a master piece. What about Asghar Khan case? IJI? Well if that was little too distant memory for you what about Shahbaz Sharif and Ch. Nasar meeting Generals after mid nights? What about Nawaz Sharif dressing up in black coat and tie to represent GHQ in memogate?

    "They try to improve governance and do some constructive work while in office."

    I acknowledge that and strongly suggest Mayor Lahore should be from PMLN. Their development and construction starts and ends at Lahore. Why rest of the Pakistan should suffer? But instead your guru wants to be Ameer ul Momaneen.

    "They keep their elected members in check for their behavior as far as they can."

    I am not sure about in-check part but they are making sure all electables can get under their hood.

    "They take stand on national issues within practical limits."

    I believe Talibanization and secterian killings are not national issues else we 'd 've heard something from PMLN leadership. Or perhaps PMLN defines it's limits on potential suicide threats.

    "PMLN is a viable national party."

    GT bahi please enlighten us on their presense beyond GT road?

    :) :)



  • My apologies I am giving my opinion without reading everyone's posts on this thread (I have read few, time a problem). In my opinion political system is a long term continuous process, creates checks and balances in system as it gets deeper roots. Our democracy unfortunately had big gaps of 10 years of Marshal Laws and army influenced democracy even those times when it were democracy. When a society have not grown enough, you will see corruption every part of this society. Our army, buerocuracy, government departments and even general public do not leave any opportunity to get their share out of corruption. Last 10 years or so our civil society has grown greatly and media is given liberty, for now if democracy continuous for another say 10 years I am visualizing great checks and balance in society and you will feel huge reduction in corruption especially by politician, I am not that optimistic over army and buerocuracy corruption reduction.



  • @GT Saab

    Asad Umar pointed out in today's off the record that ..

    The average growth rate during two terms of PMLN in '90s was 4.5% and two terms of PPP was 5%

    Please feel free to use these two links if you want to verify ...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_Pakistan

    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/pakistan/gdp-growth



  • Well I did some Google search soon after watching this programmer here is independent source result of Pakistan GDP year by year:

    1988 5.81 Election held in November

    1989 6.44 (First complete year of PPP)

    1990 4.81 (PPP rule but later in the year caretakers)

    1991 4.59 (PML(N)

    1992 5.42 (PML(N)

    1993 7.57 (Best GDP Year mainly PML(N) rule but late year caretakers, election held October 06/1993)

    1994 2.1 (First complete year of PPP no reason for that poor GDP)

    1995 4.37 (PPP)

    1996 5.06 (PPP government dissolved late this year)

    1997 6.6 PML(N)

    1998 2.1 PML(N) rule atomic explosion, economy went to earth

    1999 4.37 PML(N) moved economy in sanctioned time

    I am not agreed that PPP performed better in PPP rule. It was not that difference between two but both times PML(N) GDP graph went up. PML(N) also drove the economy our worst economic times in history after atomic explosion.



  • Correction GDP was 1.7 the year when atomic explosion was done 1998.



  • "Asad Umar pointed out in today's off the record that .."

    Asad Umar is another rowdy boy. I don't buy his argument.

    Awan71 has already debunked his fluke.

    Look at the last five years. PPP was dismal, even scandalous, in its performance. PMLN has done far better despite PPP targeting Punjab for load shedding and what not.

    It is their efforts to tackle everyday problems that have propelled new generation leaders like Amir Muqam and Marvi Memon to their folds. I think masses will elevate them to the corridors of power in this election and Pakistan will start moving in a positive direction.



  • @mawan1971 Saab

    "Correction GDP was 1.7 the year when atomic explosion was done 1998."

    
    So PMLN is more than happy to brag about Nuclear explosions but if it brought the growth rate down it's not there fault? Didn't Miyan Saab had a choice not to do explosions primarily for economic reasons? This 1.7% growth rate was not due to natural disaster it was direct result of decisions that Miyan Saab took and still brags about them.


  • @GT Saab

    "It is their efforts to tackle everyday problems that have propelled new generation leaders like Amir Muqam and Marvi Memon to their folds."

    
    Didn't these new generation leaders first join Musharaaf Saab for sending wanna be Ameer ul Momaneen home?
    
    " I think masses will elevate them to the corridors of power in this election and Pakistan will start moving in a positive direction."  
    
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
    
    If Miyan Saab had confidence on his performance and masses he wouldn't be shopping for electables left and right.
    
    :)


  • @Shirazi

    Do you think Pakistan should not have done atomic explosions that time? that is a different debate, and I think it was entire nation decision to go for atomic explosions as India has not left any choice for us. If NS has done first then blame goes to him for economy downfall. NS takes credit but in reality no leader at that time can afford not going into atomic explosion.



  • @mawan1971 Saab

    If you drill further, you will see difference is even bigger:

    PMLN:

    Nov'90 to Apr'93 > 29 (5.42+7.57)+

    May'93 to July '93 > 3 (2.1)

    Feb'97 to Oct '99 > 32 (1.7+3.49+4.18)

    64 months or 5.3 years (24.46/5.3) = 4.6% per year of PMLN rule

    PPP:

    Dec'88 to Aug'90 > 20 (4.81+4.59)

    Oct'93 to Nov '96 > 37 (4.37+5.06+6.6)

    57 months or 4.75 years (25.43/4.75) = 5.4% per year of PPP rule

    Musharaaf's

    Nov'99 to Jan'2008 > 42.78/8.1 = 5.3% per year of Mushraaf rule

    Zia's 11.1 years it was 6.5% and Ayub's 10.5 Years it was 5.4%.

    This is in contrast to myth that under Generals economy grows at much higher rate.

    :)