Real intentions of Prince Talal
We know that Jews from all over the world who had no physical connection with Palestine for centuries suddenly started descending on Palestine, illegally occupying land by displacing through massacres the Arabs who had lived on the land for generations. Long lists of these massacres are available on the web for those who want to verify facts. And additionally, these Zionists fiercely oppose the establishment of a Palestine state on a part of the land that wholly belongs to Palestinian. These circumstances clearly prove that the hostility is demonstrated by Israelis against Palestinians and not the other way round.
We know there have been various initiatives for peace under the US auspices like roadmap for peace in the Middle East and Annapolis conference, with even deadlines set for the establishment of a viable Palestinian state by a certain date but these attempts were scuttled by the Zionists. And as for the present Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, he has openly declared that he will not allow a Palestinian state to be established. According to Zionists, there already is a Palestine state in existence, Jordan, and all the Palestinians deserve to be pushed over there. And American leaders’ subservience to Israeli leaders can be judged from the following example. Before the start of the last round of negotiations between Israeli and Palestinian leaders, Palestinian leaders demanded at least a temporary freeze on illegal settlement-building activity for the duration of the negotiation process. And supporting that claim, Barack Obama thundered “Freeze (on illegal settlements) means freeze. However, when Israeli leaders objected to it then instead of putting pressure on Israeli leaders, Obama shamefully downgraded his statement, meekly and saying “Demand for freeze on settlements is not a suitable premise to build peace process on.” Obviously, with campaign expenses of American assembly aspirants paid by pro-Israel lobbies, the US administration operates from inside the pockets of Israeli leaders. It is for this reason that even Americans refer to the US Congress as the (Israeli) ‘occupied territory.
As for Talal bin Waleed, he seems to be a conceited person, overconfident of his abilities and charm and he will only damage the Palestinians’ cause. Some years back, the Saudis had offered Israel full diplomatic relations and normal ties (with the Muslim world) in exchange for the establishment of a viable Palestinian state but of course the Zionists rejected it because they want peace, while retaining every inch of the occupied territory, and perhaps want to gain more.
The arrogance of Israelis can be judged by the fact that they treat with contempt even the presidents of the United States which country always goes out of its way to help them, gives them massive economic and military aid and through the use of Veto power, kills all UN Security Council resolutions which are even mildly critical of Israel. And despite all these favours granted by the US, including by President Barack Obama, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu openly canvassed for the opponent of Obama for his second term election.
And among the Muslim countries, Turkey had very close and warm relations with Israel. Despite that, Israel did not hesitate and killed in cold blood, in international waters, nine Turks who were part of an international peace Flotilla to Gaza, taking humanitarian supplies. And for years, Israel refused even to apologize for the brutal act and Turkish-Israeli relations have remained tense ever since.
At times when it was on excellent terms with Israel, Turkey even mediated between Syria and Israel but peace negotiations failed on the question of occupied Golan Heights which Israel refused to vacate. There are around six million Jews in Israel, with low birth rates Moreover, in recent years the number of Israelis leaving Israel to settle abroad has exceeded those coming in to settle in Israel. Just how much land Israelis need?. But of course, it is their greed for land which is insatiable, making peace settlement impossible.
Israel is on good terms with Egypt. Obviously, if Egypt has agreed to do Israel’s dirty work by maintaining a suffocating blockade of Gaza – in exchange for an annual economic and military aid of over a billion dollars from the United States - what else would Israel do except loving Egyptian leaders, especially the present military dictator who has proved to be the Palestinians’ worst enemy. With Israel blocking Gaza from one side and Egypt from the other, Gaza is termed as the largest open-air prison in the world.
As for Saudi King Salman asking Prince Talal to make efforts to improve relations of Muslim world with Israel, well, Saudi monarchs are interested only in maintaining their style of autocratic rule and will go to any length to ensure its continuity. While it is true that Saudi monarchs have always helped Pakistan in its hour of need, it is also a fact that through supporting and financing anti Shia elements, and by promoting their brand of Islam, they are responsible for stirring up trouble in Pakistan as well, just like elsewhere in the Middle East, though Iran also plays a role in promoting this Shia-Sunni proxy war. It was because of its enmity with Iran that Saudi Arabia fiercely opposed US and European peace treaty with which could result in the lifting of crippling sanctions imposed on Iran. And fearing that the peace treaty might go through, perhaps Saudi Arabia wants to develop close relations and cooperation with Israel in order to offer fiancé and other facilities to Israel to launch attack on Iran’s nuclear sites which Iran insists are for civilian and peaceful purposes but which Saudi Arabia and Israel suspect to be a façade behind which nuclear arms could be developed.
Prince Talal says he is impressed with Israel’s democracy. But a democracy does not do things like Israel does. Also, how much Saudis love democracy can be judged by the fact that they supported the Egyptian military dictator Abdel Fattah el-Sisi who overthrew of a democratically elected President Mohamed Morsi and killed nearly two thousands of Morsi supporters while arranging to have thousands given various sentences, including death sentences through Eypt’s courts. Through decades of military rule, Gen. Hosni Mubarak’s men have penetrated all branches of civilian administration like Police, Judiciary and other organs of state and through non-cooperation with the democratically elected leader Mohamed Morsi, they played a major role in the worsening of conditions in Morsi’s time. Through these dirty tricks, they paved the way for military takeover and facilitated its continuation. And of course, Saudis and other rulers gave el-Sisi billions of dollars in an aid package, to make his take over succeed and not to let democracy get established in Egypt, as such awakening in the region could pose a threat to other Monarchies, including the Saudi one.
So, Prince Talal’s move is nothing but an exercise to ensure the preservation and perpetuation of the Saudi Monarchy. All else is simply pretence.
imtiazahmed last edited by
Marsya khwani full stop. The thread starter is not the only one, there are million of Muslim writers that are doing the same. Nobody talks about the remedy because it requires brains which they miss big time. They only know to draw a saga picture of Muslims humiliation and expect from readers applaud what a nice piece of write they have put in.
When we had the technology, we ruled the world. Now they have the technology they rule the world, it is as simple as that. Regarding ships bound Gaza strip for providing humanitarian help to Gaza strip palestanians, they will be definitely checked by Israeli forces if in the garb of necessities arms and ammunitions are being shipped. Any resistance would be dealt with shoot out because might is right. Like the thread starter I also aspire glory of Islam but the way I think is quite different than that of him. In my thinking, from Morroco to Indonesia there are 57 Islamic countries and are blessed with all kinds of raw material. Instead of banging the head on the wall they quietly work hard and emerge like China. And the time would come they would bulldoze that wall. All we require is dedication, hard work and will power. Right now, we have not set our direction, in fact, we are directionless.
"Real Intentions".........How can you know about someone's intentions?
Intention is a state of mind of an individual at a particular given time and only the individual concerned knows about his/her state of mind!
Will you come back and defend both your "intention" and "contention"?
I doubt it!!
I would say that by studying the behaviour pattern of an individual and by considering the surrounding circumstances, including his statements, we can form an opinion about his intention.
Let me give a simple example. In the case of killing of a person, the courts try to establish whether it was premeditated murder or manslaughter, because even though the end result is the same in both cases: the death of the victim, the punishment given to the culprit will be based on whether it was premeditated murder, with a harsher sentence, or manslaughter, earning relatively lesser sentence. And by listening to the arguments of prosecution, the defence, the witnesses and by scrutinizing other useful evidence, it is possible for the judge to determine the intention of the culprit, with as much accuracy as is theoretically possible, and this will be taken as his real intention.
Thank you for coming back.
I am not persuaded by your arguments.
"I would say that by studying the behaviour pattern of an individual and by considering the surrounding circumstances, including his statements, we can form an opinion about his intention"
By this study/observation one can only guess how the individual is likely to behave but his intention (state of mind) cannot be known.
As for the other example, you have yourself stated that the Court can only arrive at a decision based on the evidence produced which might indicate whether the murder was pre-meditated or not but not based on what the murderer's intention.
You, yourself in your opening posts have given reasons why you think Talal Bin Waleed cannot be trusted by saying:
"So, Prince Talal’s move is nothing but an exercise to ensure the preservation and perpetuation of the Saudi Monarchy. All else is simply pretence"
It is an assessment of his likely behaviour and not a knowledge about his intention!
If you make a comment on my post, you should at least consider in what context it has been written. It was basically a response to Prince Talal statement, and not an instruction manual for the glorification of Islam or Muslims. Every thinking soul knows what is wrong with Ummah and what needs to be done to regain the past and lost glory or at least to attain a position of respect in the world.
Prince Talal’s statement basically creates an impression that these are Muslims who are being unreasonable with Israelis, whereas the actual situation is just the reverse of that, which is what I tried to bring out.
And the references to Gaza flotilla and American initiatives were to highlight the fact that far more influential and powerful people than Prince Talal have tried for a peaceful settlement of Palestine but have failed due to Israel’s arrogance and insatiable greed for land. In these circumstances, Prince Talal’s efforts could hardly solve the Palestine problem but would of course bring Israel and Saudi Arabia closer and help create a joint front against Iran in case sanctions against it are lifted. And that I think is what Prince Talal’s mission is all about.
All I would say is that most of the time, things are relative and not absolute. In order to make the system work, we have to, and do make assumptions all the time and if these are made on sound basis, these can be treated as near facts or knowledge.
My last contribution:
Yes, we do make assumptions but these are our assumptions and our thoughts. We cannot say that our assumptions are other people's intentions.
Let us agree to disagree!
Shirazi1 last edited by
Prince Talal have tried for a peaceful settlement of Palestine but have failed due to Israel’s arrogance and insatiable greed for land.
What are you smoking buddy? There are fifty odd Muslims states and you are saying Israel is the one land greedy? Let Arabs announce they accept israel and then blame Israel for aggression. Prince Talal is doing this to counter Iran's growing influence in the region. I think it will help bring some sort of sanity in Ummah's attitude towards Israel.
It helps to see things in proper context. If Muslims have fifty-odd states, their worldwide population is approaching two billion. As compared to that the total world Jewish population is under twenty million, with about six million of them in Israel. Also, Israelis have low overall Israeli birth rate as compared to Palestinians, and in recent years migration pattern has changed with more Israelis leaving Israel as compared to those coming in to settle in Israel. In these circumstances, there is more than enough land in Israel proper to cater for natural growth which could even turn into natural decline due to low birth rate and changing migrating pattern. And there is really no need for Israelis to deprive Palestinians of more and more of their own land through construction of illegal barrier wall and settlements in the occupied territories, and deprive Palestinians of a contiguous piece of land on which they want to establish their state. Israel’s great appetite (let us not say greed) for land is counter-productive because this is one thing that prevents a peace treaty between Israel and the Palestinians. Israel’s treaties with Egypt and Jordan have brought peace on these two fronts and a settlement with Palestinians could also ensure peace between them, but Israel’s needless greed, I am sorry big appetite for free land comes in the way.
As for recognizing Israel, I did mention in my original post that a few years back, Saudi Arabia had offered Israel full diplomatic relations and normal ties (with the Muslim world) in exchange for the setting up of a viable Palestinian state.
While being a Sunni myself, I believe that Sunni rulers in the Middle East are more to blame for the Shia-Sunni tussle in the region. After all, these were Sunni rulers who persuaded and paid Saddam Hussain for launching a needless invasion on Iran. And again, these were Sunni rulers who destroyed Syria due to their dislike for the Alawite rulers there. Even in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia is believed to be financing and encouraging anti-Shia and other disruptive elements. Saudi Arabia’s added strength through alliance with Israel will only cause greater destabilization in the region, without contributing to peace in Palestine or anywhere else.
It would have helped if you read my original post, and in case you did so, read it with an open mind and made some effort to understand it.
Shirazi1 last edited by
I responded to you after reading your post.
Population is one matrix but look at the GDP of Jews compare to Muslims. That gives 20M Jews huge advantage over 1800M Muslims. Let's not ignore the fact that Israel's expansion is result of unsuccessful resistance that Arabs have been engaged in since the creation of state of Israel. Palestine and Israel have some land constraints but overall Arab peninsula have land to accommodate Palestinians but the rich Arab states, the GCC, care less about the miseries of Palestinians they only support the insurgency there. Forget Israel and Palestine, how GCC countries - the rich sunnis are treating there people and fellow Arabs.
curiousity last edited by
"And there is really no need for Israelis to deprive Palestinians of more and more of their own land through construction of illegal barrier wall and settlements in the occupied territories, and deprive Palestinians of a contiguous piece of land on which they want to establish their state."
Without defending Israel, the main issue with Muslims in general and the Muslim governments in particular is that they only see oppression being done by others on their kind but they don't see that they themselves are big oppressors to those who are not their own, whether at individual level, at family level, at community level, at ethnic level, at region level or at country level.
Unless they stop their own oppression and start treating others as a fellow human being, there is no chance that oppression against Muslims will stop in any part of the world.
geelemitti last edited by
et's not ignore the fact that Israel's expansion is result of unsuccessful resistance that Arabs have been engaged in since the creation of state of Israel
what a load of BS!! Israel ALWAYS had intention to annex the states they demarked in their greater Israel Plan. Palestine is just the start.
Israel took this land by force, committed genocide of Palestinians and still doing so with full fledged backing of so called civilized world.
"Forget Israel and Palestine"
why forget Israel and Palestine, if one is doing wrong that is not a justification to accept another wrong. what kind of twisted logic is this?
et Arabs announce they accept israel and then blame Israel for aggression.
Why accept Israel? It is an established fact that Israel did same to the people of Palestine what 3rd Reich did to Jews in Europe, albeit on smaller scale. If 3rd Reich has been condemned, even now for the crimes of holocaust why not Zionist of 1948-1949 ?