Musharraf civilized unlike tribals & feudals
In a recent talk to journalists, etc., conducted by, I guess, that other nincompoop Ahmad Qureshi, in reply to a question by a foreign journalist conveying that his hands were tainted by Benazir's blood, Musharraf compared himself to what he termed 'uncivilized' feudals and tribals in our country. He claims he comes from a civilized family that does not consider killings as civilized behaviour. The moral here being that he could not have committed the murder of Benazir, but the uncivilized feudals, like Zardari (this theme has recently been echoed by Musharraf stooge Chaudhry Pervez Elahi too) or the tribals like Baitullah Mehsud did it.
To my thinking, it is the mentality of all imported Pakistanis from India (not the Punjabi variety though as they have completely assimilated in the Punjab due to their cultural affinity to the locals), being more educated at the time of partition, to look down upon the sons of the soil of present Pakistan. They have treated all of us like so much cheap dirt. These people, and there are a lot of decent folks among them too, as a whole have flocked to Karachi and Hyderabad from various parts of our country where they were allotted 'matrooka' (abondoned) properties of Hindus and Sikhs in lieu of their mostly false and inflated claims of having owned properties in India, and turned the Sindhis into a minority in their own land. They have engaged in linguistic riots in the land of the Sindhis, which have a culture older and more proud than any of the other nationalities of Pakistan. They at one time demanded a separate province carved out of the land of Sindhis and engaged in genocidal war against the Pushtoons and Punjabis settled in Karachi. In any other country of the world, immigrants have no right whatsoever to demand a separate enclave for themselves, except where they have annihalated or decimated the local populace in places such as Quebec in Canada. After being born and raised in this luckless land of ours, and having stayed here for 60 years, they still call themselves muhajirs. One of the main reasons for their failure to assimilate in the local populace (even though the locals are also Muslims, had received them with open arms, and this community also doesn't tire of stressing our common Muslim credentials for exploitation's sake) is that they feel superior to the rest of us. They have called the Punjabis 'jats', the Sindhis 'manroos', the Pushtoons 'lakri cheero' and 'naswar ki dabi' and the Baloch 'jahils'.
Musharraf belongs to this same community and had immigrated to Pakistan at the age of seven, according to his own book 'In the Line of Fire'. Reflecting the mentality of this community, he has consistently insulted the Pakistani people in his abundant remarks. In one of his interviews with 'The Washington Post', Musharraf insulted Pakistani people and especially its women with his usual loud mouth by saying that Pakistani women got themselves raped to gain Canadian citizenship. He said: "This has become a moneymaking concern. A lot of people say if you want to go abroad and get a visa for Canada or citizenship and be a millionaire, get yourself raped." He later denied these remarks. But the paper stood by its story as he was interviewed by three of its reporters and had been tape-recorded. He has also consistently insulted us by telling the world that we are too underdeveloped and uncivilized to be ready for democracy and that we haven't attained that mental state of development. His mentor Altaf Hussain had once even gone to the extent of declaring the creation of Pakistan as the greatest blunder in history, and that too in India before an Indian audience, from whence these people hail. While we may agree or disagree with this, these are the very same people who claim they created Pakistan and gave a lot of sacrifices for it. While I have no dispute with the measure of their sacrifices, this kind of statement, coming from them, has a weight of its own. If a Pushtoon or a Baloch had said that, we know what would have happened to them with instant branding as traitors. That 82-year-old cripple Bugti was killed by our valiant army for much less. He was demanding Balochistan's legitimate rights. We don't know, and probably will never know, what that Sindhi pro-federalist Benazir was killed for. The immigrants from India should not, and are in no position to, deny their support for the Muttahida (Muhajir). Whatever they may say in their defence, the fact remains that they overwhelmingly support the MQM and a few feeble voices of dissent don't matter that much.
Musharraf has denied he ever thinks of killing since he claims to be coming from this 'civilized' community. The facts say otherwise. The killings carried out by the MQM over many many years are no secret, neither is the brutal way these killings were carried out by skinning some army men alive. Musharraf's protestations to the contrary not withstanding, he directly ordered the killing of Bugti and many other Baloch leaders. He is also involved in the killings of around one thousand Pakistan armymen by ordering them to invade the tribal areas. Apart from that he is directly responsible for the killings of some combatants and countless innocent old and young men, women and children in Balochistan and the federal tribal area. There is a very long list of charges against him, one of which is the biggest crime in Pakistan called high treason, abrogating the constitution of Pakistan and that too twice. No other dictator has attained this dubious distinction.
A lot of MQM supporters, and some others who are not, are going to attack these views. But I will only request one thing. Do you really have the interests of Pakistan at heart? If so, when will you stop looking down upon us and start working for yourselves and the country through the prism of self-interest through the common good, instead of common good through self-interest. And above all, when will you stop calling yourselves muhajirs---when we have managed to destroy what is left of this country? That time is not too far.
I have tried to be objective here but I may have made slips. It is for you to decide. If anybody feels aggrieved, I apologize in advance so that it may help them advance objective thinking. For those who will still feel the urge to cuss and abuse and use foul language, I would suggest taking a long drink of ice cold water. Comments please.
insider last edited by
I KNEW THIS WAS A MAHAJIR THING! If it wasnt for Mahajirs Pakistan wouldnt exist. It would still be part of Hindustan. Maybe this is why the punjabis and sindhis were chanting anti pakistan slogans.
when i said it was an ethnic thing all along, back at the time of the CJ firing, no one understood.
I am not a MQM supporter at all, I think their leader sounds like a dog when he speaks.....but do you know how many Mahajirs were murdered on the order of BB and Zardari? I dont think you have a clue. Do you know how many tortured Mahajir bodies were being found daily in Karachi in the '90s. I dont think you do.
this whole thing is because the sindhis and punjabis are so upset that a lowly "mahajir" could lead the country of pakistan.
The situation on the ground is very different than you describe it Rebel B.
In Karachi, the areas where urdu speakers live were targeted the hardest. Factories were burned, and MAHAJIR workers were burned alive inside.
Musharraf is right. The tribals are uncivilized. They believe killing is ok. Maybe the looters, killers, rioters, business burners are more civilized. What a joke.
answers70 last edited by
What is this? When the politicians desist, we must come along and try and fuel the ethnic fire.
I simply thought Musharraf's answer to the journalist's question was pathetically inadequate - if pedigree were any insurance against murdering and marauding, history of the Mughals, the Ottomans, the Caliphs, and countless monarchies the world over would have been different. His answer was an angry and stupid reaction.
@ macaca/ Insider
I suggested a long ice-cold drink of water for you, but since you have again started your lousy 'logic', chew on this and don't blame me (I only wanted a serious debate): You are a lousy liar who says he hates Altaf (because he "sounds like a dog"; what happened, I thought the Americans loved dogs?) but probably wants to be in his shoes. After proclaiming your hatred for him, you have directly quoted from Altaf's book: "Factories were burned (burnt), and Mahajar workers were burned alive inside." This was the statement of the great Muhajir leader yesterday. Now, at least we know for a fact that you are a 'muhajir', and that you will have a muhajir mentality whereever you immigrate next.
Did you even pause to think on what I wrote here? Obviously not. Since as soon as I posted, pat came your reply. It is the typical Musharraf mentality where he thinks after he shoots off his big mouth. For all I know, you may be Musharraf's real son since you seem to have genetic similarities.
You said in another post that your mother worked at a polling station. Obviously, she was a lowly election staffer. Now, in keeping with your most admired leader Musharraf's logic about Pakistani women, what did your mother do to gain immigration to the US? Before you start abusing me any further, I again request you to take a minute and think about it. Do it for yourself and not for anything else. I DON'T believe in such crap and have all the respect for all women. It is Musharraf who advanced this logic. If you don't believe me, I can send you the relevant links and you can judge for yourself. Do you still want a guy like Musharraf as the 'leader' of Pakistan, who casts aspersions on our women's character? If you blew your top with my comment, do you expect other Pakistanis to love it?
And about the uncivilized tribals comment of yours, it was the 'uncivilized' Baloch tribals who took the army captain to task for raping a Pakistani muhajir doctor. Musharraf was all for hushing up the affair. Now, who is civilized? If you are interested, I can send you those links as well. Cool off before replying.
All people have different interpretations on this. But these are not his only comments. He has done it time and again. So is he fit to be head of state of a country he repeatedly insults? Do we not have anyone among 165 million people that can fulfil that role, even a 'muhajir'?
Also, this discussion is presently not on the ethnic. It is on the insistence of a group of people to treat them as an ethnic entity, which they are obviously not coming from various ethnic backgrounds in India.
insider last edited by
rebel, you can try to throw smoke and mirrors about individual cases of sindhis, balochs, punjabis etc having "moral highground" but the root of the issue is your hate of mahajirs. There is just no getting around that.
As for me quoted Altaf Hussain, you are wrong. I have many many mahajir family members in Karachi that see and hear what is going on. What you see on the news is nothing compared to what actually happened in Karachi. And it didnt happen to just Mahajirs, the crazy sindhi PPP workers destroyed all areas except for PPP strongholds. They targeted urdu speaking areas.
As for my mother working as a "lowly" poll staffer. She was a college student that saw pakistan going down the tubes long ago. She migrated to the US wayyy before your ethnic parents had you in a mahajir hospital and before you migrated to canada.
I love my mahajir mentality. In fact it is what makes me better than an ethnically confused person like you. In fact my family were mahajirs before they moved to hydrabad india. They were mahajirs from Iraq. Good thing Hydrabad India didnt have weak racists like you, or else it wouldnt have been the flourishing cultural mixing pot that Pakistan will never be.
@ macaca/ eternal muhajir/ insider
I don't think your mentality will ever change since you are so proud of it. Take a piece of good advice though. Put down some roots in some country that you finally decide to call your own. Otherwise, you'll forever be in the wilderness. Do you still have relatives in Iraq, where you now claim descent from, and do you still keep on commenting on their uncivilized behaviour? So now you are an Iraqi-Paki-American macaca. I wonder what other countries you will claim descent from if we prod you further (I am sure soon you will also claim Mughal ancestory---what will that make you: Mongol-Turk-Iraqi-Paki-American macaca). You are a true mongrel if ever I read one posting threads here. That explains the hotch-potch you are trying to sell here.
They say, what you sow, so shall you reap. It was the muhajirs who started burning people alive in fires in Karachi in the 80s or didn't you know? You must have known that since you have direct communication to the people in Karachi. If you were too young at the time, ask your muhajir relatives for the facts of the 80s. What did you expect from Sindhis, flowers? And why do you complain now?
And no, I wasn't born in a muhajir hospital. It was a hospital founded by a kind British lady. My mother is still in Pakistan enjoying her huge house with servants all around, while you are selling donuts in Harlem. Unlike you, I have a PLACE TO GO BACK TO. Can you say the same for yourself?
gul last edited by
Facts are always bitter. What can I say. We need to change them for the better. If you don't discuss distasteful things, how would you know what to improve?
gul last edited by
I wasn't refering to the facts.
Well, if you are referring to the discussion, I agree. If you are referring to the people, you should also realize that there are people on this post who constantly misbehave and make fun of any attempt to engage in serious debate. One can only put up with a little bit of that. If someone persists in his behaviour, not everybody will ignore it. Some like myself will retaliate in kind.
adonis last edited by
Lets all be Pakistanis ....
Adonis, you are probably right. But there is unity in diversity. Being Pakistani does not mean we can't have any other identity. The sooner we recognize this, the better. One of the reasons for Bangladesh's creation was our violent suppression of their Bengali ethnic aspirations and treating them like third rate citizens, who were beneath our status. I have nothing against Urdu speakers except their unfounded claim of being an ethnic group and especially their condescending attitude towards other Pakistanis and false sense of superiority. I know for a fact that their ancestors have offered a lot of sacrifices for this country but that does not give them the right to insult others. To me all people are equal. And should be treated as such. Only when we realize this will we be able to become Pakistanis. Nobody has the right to insult anybody else for their culture.
dervaish last edited by
"The worst forms of crimes are always committed by the most vociferous supporters of civilization" (or to that effect) Herbert Marcuse, author of "One Dimensional Man"
Western reporter to Gandhi: "What do you think of Western civilization?"
Gandhi: "Hmm...it would be a good idea!"
Nobel Laureate Bishop Desmond Tutu of South Africa on "civilization" and the white man's civilizing mission: 'When the white men came to Africa they had Bibles in their hands and we, we Africans, had everything. We had all sorts of resources, land, gold, copper, livestock, you name it, we had all. The white men asked us to close our eyes and to pray to the Lord. We did so. We obeyed them and we closed our eyes and we prayed to the Lord. And then, when we opened our eyes, we had bibles in our hands and the white men had everything, the land, resiurces, gold and all'.
'...how much more exposed can they be? Which decent human being on earth harbours any illusions about it? These are people whose histories are spongy with blood of others. Colonialism, apartheid, slavery, ethnic cleansing, germ warfare, chemical weapons, they virtually invented it all. They have plundered nations, snuffed out civilizations, exterminated entire populations. They stand on the worldâ€™s stage naked but entirely unembarrassed...' (Arundhati Roy, "The End of Imagination", The Guardian, August 1, 1998).
Rebel: The term "civilization" is very loaded. Bush, Blair and their colonized poodles in the "darker world", like the fawji pimp of Islamabad that you have mentioned in your post above, all toe the same line of "us civilized people against them barbarians" and they do so while themsleves indulging in the worst forms of mass murder, "collateral damage" as they call it. The blood of hundreds and thousands of innocent Iraqis, Afghanis and Palestinians are still wet on the hands of these shameless war criminals as they go around the world "civilizing" the world. Their crimes are sanitized, sanctioned by the whole paraphernalia of the nation state system and the amoral codes of international realpolik. The state has, after all, a monopoly on violence and its terrorism is never contested as "barbaric" or "uncivilized". A good example is that of the aparthied state of Isreal vis-a-vis the Palestinians.
When the fawji whores---and their civilian, predominantly Punjabi pimps---of Islamabad butcher a near-death Baluch or Sindhi leader with the violent machinery of the state, it is not called terrorism but when people resist and protest against this kind of systematic, sanitized and scientized violence, it is quickly labelled as terrorism by the different organs of the state, including the official media. To be identified with the "civilized" lot of our world you are then required to lay back and enjoy the rape and not raise your voice in protest, lest you be labelled "uncivilized"!
The 20th century known as "the century of terror" by the Marxist Eric Hobsbaum, was a century of "civilized" barbarism. Almost 200 million people lost their lives in non-war activites. The single most potent idea that has made sure the numerous mini-genocides of our times has been the idea of "development" or "progress", the presiding idea of Western modernity of the 18th and 19th centuries.
The modern, secular Pakistani elite (especially its fawji core), comprising mostly of the people from Urban areas like Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad, have produced their share of these genocidal types obsessed with the Western secular worldview. Thoroughly colonized by these powerful Western ideas and ideologies, these people are simply incapable of thinking with indigenous categories. It is this incapacity to identify with the indigenous that often results in bouts of systemic violence against the powerless natives. Or, it is because of the near-total hold of such ideas on the imagination of this deracinated class of Pakistanis that we see the contempt towards the "uncivilized" locals that you have mentioned. When that white man's poodle, Musharraf, humiliates himself (and the rest of us) in front of the world by claiming that the people of Pakistan are not yet ready and not "civilized" enough for such a sublime thing as Western style representative democracy, then we surely know what is at work inside that thing that he carries on his fawji shoulders. Commenting on Musharraf's speech to the nation after the Emergency was imposed, Muhammad Hanif of the BBC's Urdu Service says: "When for the last few minutes of his speech he addressed his audience in the West in English, I suddenly felt a deep sense of humiliation. This part of his speech was scripted. Sentences began and ended. I felt humiliated that my president not only thinks that we are not evolved enough for things like democracy and human rights, but that we canâ€™t even handle proper syntax and grammar."
At this point in time, Pakistani society resembles a lot the Iran of 1979, just before the Islamic revolution. As it was then with many things, so it is now. If anything, the Iranian revolution was a struggle to recapture, revive and reassert cultural and spiritual independence of the Iranian people and of the Islamic worldview. It was not an economic revolution at all as some have claimed wrongly. Then, there had developed a violent, parasitic class of colonized elite that had the same contempt for the local people, their traditions and cultures and looked down upon those who refused to "civilise" themselves. People like Musharraf and others of his ilk who hail from the urban classes and who are so throughly indoctrinated with Western secular ideas, especially when they go through institutions like the fawj, are the new Brown Sahibs of Pakistan, ever ready to shoulder the white man's burden for their masters. Pakistn's real problems have their sources in the minds and hearts of this class of internal parasites who rule over us, sell us cheap, plunder, humiliate and abuse us, and unless these people are liberated from the clutches of imported, genocidal cetegories of thought, we have no hope.
u r right when u assert that these so called our masters never really wanted to see us flourishing they actually wanted us to be more suppressed so that they can be our masters and we will always be obeying them like servants .
these our fawji master go to usa for studies and come back brainwashed agent working for usa ,they think they have the birth right to tame â€œuncivilizedâ€ lot by all uncivilized means coz we are incapable handling matters .
look at the history ,hitler was stilled remembered coz he was behind holocaust of jews which he thought was the ultimate solution of jews problem ,but we ignore the present â€œHitler bushâ€ who is committing genocide against muslims all over the world in the name of â€œfreedomâ€ or â€œwar on terrorismâ€ and UN is acting like USA keep to facilitate their agendas on every third world country coz they believe they are too superior and muslims are too inferior to look after themselves .when bugtee was cold bloodily murdered it he was declared â€œanti Pakistanâ€ .
since the birth of Pakistan these things rammed down our throats that fawjis are some alite class coming from mars so we need to bow down to our knees coz they are defending our country ,fawjis who call us â€œbloody civiliansâ€ think they are the only ones who can run this country .
They are treated like holy cows and anything which is said against them is high treason .
They who should be subservient of civilians act like our kings ,they who should be subservient of our constitution but they crippled our constitution and were never thought to have committed â€œtreasonâ€
None of them were killed like â€œbugteeâ€â€ and none of them were tried in courts .
Instead they were given lands ,lots of DHA,s so that can live in a posh environment where other can rot in hell ,they crippled our constitution but who cares .the mushroom growth of DHA,s turned them into land mafia ,our fawji elite class deserve all the luxuries whereas civilians who are feeding them with their taxes should act like their servants who are made to live in any environment but they are not allowed to complain .
dervaish last edited by
Rebel: There is no need to be apologetic, that is, when you claim that you are being "objective" in your analysis. Be "biased", be very biased, if it means that what you are saying is just and fair and in accordance with your beliefs and faith. Telling the truth, the way it is, in itself is a revolutionary act in these times of universal deceit, as Orwell used to say. "If you tell the truth you will be in big trouble but if you remain silent, something deep dies inside you", Ben Okri of Nigeria tells us.
This idea of "objectivity", especially in the realm of the "soft" (social) sciences, is one whore of a concept that came out, again, from the Newtonian reductionist science influenced worldview of 19th century Europe. It is simply a myth (in the derogatory sense of the word). The contemporary debates in the sociology, history and philosophy of science or otherwise known as science and technology studies---building on the earlier findings of quantum phyisics and the "uncertainty principle" of Heisenberg--- and the ongoing "cultural wars" in the USA/Canada, have all deconstructed these oppressive meta narratives of secular modernity. Theories are loaded with a lot of assumptions and values which remain hidden from us. For example,ã€€mathematics itself, the very foundation of Baconian science, has been shown to be culturally situated, with a lot of metaphysical baggage attached to it, socially constructed by the dominant consciousness. The very idea of the "Universal" (meaning Western Universality, only Western values are universal and everything else is simply provincial, tribal) has done so much damage. For example, one obvious outcome has been the reduction of civilizations (plural) to a singular, civilization (meaning Western, modern civilization, to which colonized and mediocre minds like Musharraf and his sycophants sing paeans). There is no one Universal set of values out of which comes all the grand ideas of democracy, freedom and human rights etc. for the rest of us to swallow uncritically. There are now competing universalims, contesting ideas of human rights, freedom and democracy. Only one civilization has no monopoly on such ideas and values. Hence the former Iranian president Muhammad Khatami's (and others') call for a "dialogue of Civilizations", as opposed to the belligerant calls by white supremacists of a "clash of civilizations" or "us civilized" against "them barbarians".
We must reclaim the cunningly dropped "s" from the word civilizations (and all other such grand ideas) by the imperialists that rendered it to one "civilization" and in doing so did grave harm to humanity. What the white man saw as a burden, after Kipling, are now increasingly showing that the burden carriers with their destructive and violent ways of being, knowing and doing have themselves become a dead weight for the planet and its life support systems (the ecological crisis).
andarkabandar last edited by
wonderful post derv
great post from yr side too
letsdoit last edited by
good post derv